Cube Lagering

[rehab]

Hey all. Just a quick question. I am using a brewmaster fermenter atm and at the old mans it is a bit too big to fit in the "beer fridge" in the garage. I am talking height wise AND width wise (bloody side shelves don't come off easily and it might need to be sold in the future!). I am keen to make a lager and or a pilsner. I used to mainly drink those before I had the chance meeting with hoppy Pale Ales that would change my taste buds forever. I am really just wondering if I could brew in a cube and leave it in the fridge for two or so weeks (not too sure what the schedule is for lagering to be honest) then syphon to the fermenter for racking/ bottling purposes?
I guess I have more questions: How cold will the yeast need to be pitched at and how cold can I let it get in the fridge? I wont be around the fridge on a daily basis so will just be telling the old man to keep an eye on things pretty much...
In terms of the cube is it sweet to drill a hole in the lid for an airlock or do I want to keep it airtight the whole time?

If I am making a mistake then let me know and I will leave this challenge for later on... really just keen to crack into this type of brewing but don't have the room or resources for a fridge/freezer atm ...

Cheers all

Chris B)

 

[MaltyHops]

Yes, I think it's quite possible to ferment in a cube but I think the biggest
issue is controlling the fridge to maintain lager fermenting temperatures
which range from 8C to 14C so you want a fridge to be ble to maintain
things around 10C. Trouble is fridges are usually not made to do this - the
lowest cooling setting and hence the warmest the fridge will stay at if it
is operating, is usually around the 5C mark (I think).

So I think you need to get a fridge controller (STC-1000, fridgemate, ...)
with cooling and heating control functions before attempting to brew
lagers properly, even if you have a bigger fridge. The controllers aren't
that expensive to get, tricky part is getting one put together safely.

Getting someone to keep an eye on things isn't really practical - how would
they get the fridge to stay around 10C anyway? And primary fermentation
will be longer than for ales.

In terms of the cube is it sweet to drill a hole in the lid for an airlock or do I
want to keep it airtight the whole time?

Definitely not airtight - airlock through lid would be ok or attach a tap from
a fermenter to the cube, then use a vinyl tube to connect spout to an airlock
(see pix below) or put food wrap around the cube spout and rubber band
around it. May or may not need to put pin prick holes in the wrap depending
on how active the yeast gets.

One of the advantages of attaching a tap to the cube is it gives an easy way
to eventually transfer your beer out (to priming/bottling) without too much
agitation and risk exposing to too much air & oxidation.

You will need to keep empty space as headroom in your cube - maybe start
with 1/4 of the cube and see whether that's enough for the krausen or not
and adjust for subsequent brews. So with a 22L cube say, your batch size
would be around 16L or so, adjust recipes accordingly.

If you use nochill as a way of cooling wort, might be good a keep a cube
for fermenting separate from cubes use for nochilling as its hard to clean
a cube enough to get rid of all yeast.

T.

 

[Dazza88]

That's a inventive way to have an airlock in a cube malty,

I am currently fermenting in cubes, i just put gladwrap over the lid opening and then screw on the lid tight and then unscrew a little so that co2 can escape but the lid doesn't pull off (still threaded in a fair way) or allow stuff to crawl into it. I haven't used an airlock for over a year, i think you find many brewers on here don't, just gradwrap and rubber bands.

Fermenting in a fridge without temp control from something like a stc1000 didn't work for me; I tried timers, pulling the fermenter in and out of the fridge trying to keep at desired temp. PITA really and then you forget to put in or out, temp goes too high of low, freezer on fridge starts defrosting ice into the fridge section (and worryingly onto the top of the fermenter - mmm raw chicken ice water - should of got them out of their ages ago).

A dead fridge with 2l ice blocks changed once or twice a day can maintain a stable temp. 18C in Queensland. What is ambient temp where you are in NZ? maybe you can use a dead fridge to get say 14C? Lager yeast can be used at that temp.

S-189 swiss lager yeast can be used at 19C successfully. One of the site sponsors reports to consistently use it at this temp. That could be a way to brew lagers. Some ale yeast can be used at 15 - 16C to get fake lagers.

 

[rehab]

That's a inventive way to have an airlock in a cube malty,

I am currently fermenting in cubes, i just put gladwrap over the lid opening and then screw on the lid tight and then unscrew a little so that co2 can escape but the lid doesn't pull off (still threaded in a fair way) or allow stuff to crawl into it. I haven't used an airlock for over a year, i think you find many brewers on here don't, just gradwrap and rubber bands.

Fermenting in a fridge without temp control from something like a stc1000 didn't work for me; I tried timers, pulling the fermenter in and out of the fridge trying to keep at desired temp. PITA really and then you forget to put in or out, temp goes too high of low, freezer on fridge starts defrosting ice into the fridge section (and worryingly onto the top of the fermenter - mmm raw chicken ice water - should of got them out of their ages ago).

A dead fridge with 2l ice blocks changed once or twice a day can maintain a stable temp. 18C in Queensland. What is ambient temp where you are in NZ? maybe you can use a dead fridge to get say 14C? Lager yeast can be used at that temp.

S-189 swiss lager yeast can be used at 19C successfully. One of the site sponsors reports to consistently use it at this temp. That could be a way to brew lagers. Some ale yeast can be used at 15 - 16C to get fake lagers.

At the moment it is 18-20 deg C (20 is where it starts off for the first 2 days of fermentation) then after the first 7 it can drop down to 16 deg C in the uninsulated cupboard I keep it in currently.

The idea with the "dead fridge" could work... Wouldn't be too hard to pop round and change the Ice Packs after work...

Another thing:
With lagering will I keep doing this all the way through fermentation (will I keep doing this in "secondary"?) or once it hits the level for 3 days and Primary is done can I keep it at a more normalised level?

Cheers for the answers. I know I am "pushing it" to a certain degree but can't get a nice Pilsner in the middle of Summer off of my mind :icon_drool2:

Chris

 

[Dazza88]

Fermenting - in your case i would:

1. ferment in primary until compete (FG reached, check with a hydrometer). Say if the 'dead' fridge thing worked for you and fermented lower at say 10C, you should have a diacetyl rest period at the end of fermentation where you allow the brew to rise up to 16C for two days.

2. When fermented and diacetyl rested (if required), leave in the fermenter for another week around ferment temp (though left at 16C isn't a big problem).

3. Cold crash (this is 'lagering' without the 1C drop per day to get in down to cold temps) in the working fridge for a month, or at least two weeks if you can't wait. Probably better to be longer if the ferment temp was lower. Say s-189 at 16C ferment, i would crash chill for 1 or 2 weeks.

4. bottle/keg, carb, enjoy.

This will produce a nice beer, using something like s-189 or even s23 yeast will ensure that as long as ferment temps were consistent the beer will turn out good.

Even have a go at using s-189 and ferment in your cupboard at 18C, or lower during ferment if possible. it produces a good beer.

 

[Swanstar]

Good Info,

Cheers Daz

 

[MaltyHops]

TB,

Was ferreting around for info about lagering in a cube and came across
an old post of yours:

... in the fact that at high temperatures the HDPE is quite permeable to oxygen.

... but you have better than a square meter of surface area, which is Atransmitting
oxygen at 58cc per square meter per 24hrs per mm of thickness at 25C - At 35C
this rises to 111cc. ...

I did a plot of the two data points in Excel and extrapolating backwards, the amount
of oxygen passing through a hdpe cube at 10C would be zero. Would this be valid?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

TB,

Was ferreting around for info about lagering in a cube and came across
an old post of yours:

I did a plot of the two data points in Excel and extrapolating backwards, the amount
of oxygen passing through a hdpe cube at 10C would be zero. Would this be valid?

It doesn't go to zero as i recall, but ends up quite low. I seem to remember getting that data (or at least some of it) from an australian manufacturer of HDPE wine aging tanks. Its quite low at low temperatures.... I lager for shortish periods in primary, which for me is hdpe - if I was going to lager for extended periods, I'd use stainless. I might still have the original documents I pulled the oxygen transmission rates out of - I'll look.

 

[MaltyHops]

Thanks - about as expected I guess - close enough to zero but not
zero. The good DrS has mentioned on BrewAdelaide about lagering
in 10L cubes for up to 3 months without seeing any problems and
am thinking of doing the same.

I don't have kegs and can fit a 10L cube in the main household fridge
without taking up too much space so for practicality, that will do well
enough for lagering.

Woo-hoo!!! Hofbrau Dunkel and Urquell here we come! :icon_drool2:

 

[fletcher]

sorry to dredge up an old thread but i'm looking to try and use 10l cubes in my normal household fridge and do my lagering in this way - being a hot summer i'm just trying to avoid having my ferment fridge at 2C for three or more weeks.

my plan was to ferment and d-rest and then slowly drop degrees to 2C - from here, rack to cubes and place in my normal fridge. lager here for as long as i can be patient, and then bottle.

my questions are, will those cubes need to be not airtight if primary fermentation is done? i can't have them open in my normal fridge so if there is yeast activity at the ~5C temps, could they be burped? i'm using W34/70