Cube Bitterness?

[matti]

My latest brew I ended First wort hopping. (FWH)
I added the bitterness @ 45 min
then again at 30 min
flame out hop i added to cube. the recipe says 7 g but i actually added 14g (1 plug)
Recipe
I am either going to ferment with s-189 or 2206 Bavarian Lager yeast.

I tasted the wort and it one could detect some bitterness coming through the sweet wort no after taste.

I chose this hop-schedule to see if it will add any hop flavour to the lager.
My 1st lager/no chill, had Zero hop coming through but turned out very malty/ North German style.

This one will be great summer-quencher if it turns out good. :icon_cheers:
matti

 

[hoohaaman]

Hi matti ,have been reading a bit about FWH lately.

Have you substituted entire late editions to FWH,or do you hold some back for the actual time?

What I've read so far,I like the idea of FWH.

Cheers

 

[matti]

I took out 1/3 of 60, 45, and 30 minutes and FWH:ed.
I thing I've read that 20% is the ball -park figure.
Cheers
EDIT: Just to clarify. thr 60 minutes hop was added with the 45 min hops.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Pomo - I dont calculate that "20min" figure from whirpool additions or late additions - thats from a bit of stocking with the hops in it, actually shoved in the cube. It stays there till I ferment. I suspect that late hop additions that dont transfer the physical hops to the cube would be much less. Probably on the order of 5 IBU depending I suppose on the type and amount of late addition hops - if its a 3.5% hallertau.... nothing much I guess - but a 15.5% galaxy.... I'd probably go with whatever you would get from a 5min addition.

Interestingly, I heard some pro-brewers on the Brewing Network or Basic Brewing discussing flameout/whirlpool utilisation and bitterness. I cant recall the numbers precisely, but they were definitely suggesting that a whirpool addition adds IBU's ... I think they were calculating it as a 10min addition??? or something close-ish to that anyway.

 

[hoohaaman]

I took out 1/3 of 60, 45, and 30 minutes and FWH:ed.
I thing I've read that 20% is the ball -park figure.
Cheers
EDIT: Just to clarify. thr 60 minutes hop was added with the 45 min hops.

Ok so 1/3 of 60 min addition was added with the 45 min.hops.Oh dear confusing myself more.

Might stick to 20% of late addition hops.

Cheers

 

[Stuster]

Well, rather than wake the beast that is the original no-chill thread I thought I'd post in this thread around my experiment. Finally, after nearly two years of promising off and on to do this, I've got round to doing a no-chill experiment. A double batch of APA - half run off to a cube, the other half then chilled. Both pitched with the same yeast - in this case second generation slurry of WLP008 East Coast Ale from an American Wheat/Rye. I chose an APA to see what the effects of chilling are on late hopping, especially aroma. This yeast is pretty clean so should help to work out

As an experiment it has its shortcomings. The chilled part was obviously in contact with the hops and trub for a period while the no-chill part was run off but I estimate this was only around fifteen minutes which many people do anyway as an aroma steep. There was probably a bit more trub/hops that got through into the chilled part as this was the bottom part and a bit of it ran off towards the end.

The two parts are not quite the same size and the yeast pitching rate certainly won't be any more precise than my eyeballs can make it. The temperature of pitch may well not be identical either. But to give me a sense of how much of a difference chilling makes on aroma, I'm hoping these issues are not enough to influence the outcome. I'll take some along to a brew club meeting in due time and see if we can do a triangle test and see if people can taste/smell a big difference.

So any suggestions on what I can do now or what I've done wrong.

 

[balconybrewer]

great experiment suster, i look forward to hearing the results

 

[jimmyjack]

I have noticed a significant amount of extra bitterness in my beers that have increased late additions. I recently brewed an APA and had to change the style because the bitterness was more like an IPA. I believe it adds more than 5 IBU more like 15. Its not the water as most of my beers are brewed with very soft tank water.
My beers with small late additions do not have the increase bitterness. I have started to adjust my bittering timings to account for this and it has helped but is in no way a solution. I will try the boil screen like others to see if that stops it from continuing to bitter in the cube.


Cheers,

Jim

 

[PostModern]

Pomo - I dont calculate that "20min" figure from whirpool additions or late additions - thats from a bit of stocking with the hops in it, actually shoved in the cube. It stays there till I ferment. I suspect that late hop additions that dont transfer the physical hops to the cube would be much less. Probably on the order of 5 IBU depending I suppose on the type and amount of late addition hops - if its a 3.5% hallertau.... nothing much I guess - but a 15.5% galaxy.... I'd probably go with whatever you would get from a 5min addition.

Interestingly, I heard some pro-brewers on the Brewing Network or Basic Brewing discussing flameout/whirlpool utilisation and bitterness. I cant recall the numbers precisely, but they were definitely suggesting that a whirpool addition adds IBU's ... I think they were calculating it as a 10min addition??? or something close-ish to that anyway.

I see. I misread your post. My system gets beer completely free of hop residue in to the cube, and as the whirlpool hops spend less than a few mins in the wort... for me, the late hops add almost nothing in the way of bitterness no matter how much I use. I guess it would be less than completely insignificant with high alpha hops, but again, not enough of a worry given my technique. I tend to keep high alpha for 60 mins and aroma hops for the end. Tho I have used Amarillo as a whirlpool addition, but it was in an already bitter brew, so even 10IBUs would have been unnoticeable.

As I see it, very simplistically, it seems, hops serve two purposes. The bitterring compounds need to isomerise, and the aroma/flavour compounds just need to dissolve into the wort. So two additions, one for bitterness with plenty of boil time, one for aroma, with zero boil time. All this balancing between 20,15,10,5 minute stuff... *shrug*

 

[gerald]

I use a hop bag from craft brewer so i get no hop trub stuff in my cube when i no chill. that said i have only used it a couple of times and the aroma of these beers has been much lower than i hoped. flame out editions dont seem to be doing much. I might try TB's technique next time and see if that gets me more flavour/aroma.

great info in this thread guys.

 

[Tony]

I do both........ i make 27 liter batches to no chill and 52 liter batches that are chilled and pitched for kegging.

I have found that a nochilled beer with a lot of late hops has a higher bitterness than i am usually after. To combat this i set my flameout addition in promash at 5 min to account for the extra utilisation while sitting hot in the kettle for 10 min and then in the cube. I have a falsie in my smaller no chilling kettle and get no hops in the cube.

I have also noticed a los of hop aroma in no chilled beers. I can get plenty of flavour but aroma goes out the window compared to a chilled beer. To comabt this......... i just add more flame out hops hops :beerbang: I dont like dry hopping...... its the grassy thing. I like the flame out addition.

Another thing i use a lot is FWH and a later bittering addition.

I boil for 90 min, i add 10 ibu worth of hops at FWH and the remainder ar 45 min to go. I get fantastic results with this. Doesnt matter if its 3% SAAZ or 11% target..... i still only add 10 IBU at FWH. The amounts will change but it will be relative to the %AA and thus the amount used at 45 min.

I use... as mentioned.... Promash and have my bitterness set to Tensith. I account an extra 5% utilisation for FWH hops.

To be honest the settings in your brewing software can have a drastic effect on the beers bitterness depending on your hopping scedule. TDH (GT) on here helped me set up my promash bitterness calculation many years ago and they work perfectly. Always get the bitterness i want no mater when i add what hops.

I basicly have my bitterness set to give me a 10% increase in utilisation for pellet hops and a further 5% increase for FWH. That way the calcs are based on the base of flower hops........ processed hops will give more bitterness as will FWH'ing

Works great

Stuster........... your triel sounds like a cracker. Will be great to see your findings. I dont see a problem whit the ecperiments methods as a no chill beer will have run off the hops sooner than a beer that was chilled in my garage. No chill sits in the kettle for 10 min then cubed, chilled.......... could be an hour sometimes after i turn off the water and let it all settle out.

big difference

cheers

 

[Peaka]

Can someone tell me what these cubes are? Are they another style of fermenter or something?

 

[buttersd70]

Can someone tell me what these cubes are? Are they another style of fermenter or something?

Just a food grade jerry can, such as the blue Willow brand ones, or similar. Usually a 20L one will hold more. (the Willow 20L ones, for example, actually hold 24L, just.)

edit. Pics of the other shape type in the how to NC article here

 

[matti]

I have noticed a significant amount of extra bitterness in my beers that have increased late additions. I recently brewed an APA and had to change the style because the bitterness was more like an IPA. I believe it adds more than 5 IBU more like 15. Its not the water as most of my beers are brewed with very soft tank water.
My beers with small late additions do not have the increase bitterness. I have started to adjust my bittering timings to account for this and it has helped but is in no way a solution. I will try the boil screen like others to see if that stops it from continuing to bitter in the cube.


Cheers,

Jim

If whirl pool addition give as much as 15 Ibu it think you may be exagurating( doya liek my speling?)

When no chilling I would add 60 minute addition at 45-50 minutes
And leave late addition a late as possible. 20 minute additon in recipe to about 15 and boost of flame out hops by 1/8 ish

Well that is the conclusion I get on listening to Jamil and you guys here.

Cheri0 matti
It aint't all a science. Brewing is more like a feel of things thumb rule then some practice

 

[stueywhytcross]

Well, rather than wake the beast that is the original no-chill thread I thought I'd post in this thread around my experiment. Finally, after nearly two years of promising off and on to do this, I've got round to doing a no-chill experiment. A double batch of APA - half run off to a cube, the other half then chilled. Both pitched with the same yeast - in this case second generation slurry of WLP008 East Coast Ale from an American Wheat/Rye. I chose an APA to see what the effects of chilling are on late hopping, especially aroma. This yeast is pretty clean so should help to work out

As an experiment it has its shortcomings. The chilled part was obviously in contact with the hops and trub for a period while the no-chill part was run off but I estimate this was only around fifteen minutes which many people do anyway as an aroma steep. There was probably a bit more trub/hops that got through into the chilled part as this was the bottom part and a bit of it ran off towards the end.

The two parts are not quite the same size and the yeast pitching rate certainly won't be any more precise than my eyeballs can make it. The temperature of pitch may well not be identical either. But to give me a sense of how much of a difference chilling makes on aroma, I'm hoping these issues are not enough to influence the outcome. I'll take some along to a brew club meeting in due time and see if we can do a triangle test and see if people can taste/smell a big difference.

So any suggestions on what I can do now or what I've done wrong.

Any results yet Stuster?

 

[clean brewer]

I just did my first AG 2 weeks ago and it was Drsmurtos JSGA, just racked it off to CC for now and when I tasted it, it was quite bitter, I no chilled as well and followed the hop schedule according to the recipe, I now can understand why it tasted quite bitter.. Obviously from sitting at a hot temperature for a longer time, Ill be adjusting my hop schedule in future to compensate for it..

:icon_cheers:

 

[MCT]

If whirl pool addition give as much as 15 Ibu it think you may be exagurating( doya liek my speling?)

When no chilling I would add 60 minute addition at 45-50 minutes
And leave late addition a late as possible. 20 minute additon in recipe to about 15 and boost of flame out hops by 1/8 ish

Well that is the conclusion I get on listening to Jamil and you guys here.

Interesting Matti, I might give this a go next time. I'm sure my cubed beers are more bitter than they should be.

Anyone else tried a similar hop schedule when doing no chill?
I have been experimenting with the flame out addition being added straight to the cube, but I still think the aromatics aren't quite there.

 

[wambesi]

Interesting Matti, I might give this a go next time. I'm sure my cubed beers are more bitter than they should be.

Anyone else tried a similar hop schedule when doing no chill?
I have been experimenting with the flame out addition being added straight to the cube, but I still think the aromatics aren't quite there.

I found it quite bitter (well more than I was expecting) as well so adjusted it in my latest APA, did first taste the other day and it seemed better but I wont know for sure for another week or two at least.

 

[matti]

I was in a hurry when I wrote that earlier post.

If you were to add all hop additions a little bit later I.e. 10-15 minutes.
Maybe boost your flame out additions a little.
You may find that you can achieve a beer that results in having the IBUs desired with No chilling using a recipe designed for crash chilling.

The few things you need to keep in mind is:
No hop residue in the cube, that bitterness subsides with time and the BU:GU is at some sort of balance.

That any hop residue that has come with the break into cube will add to bitterness as the wort cools slowly.
Also break material in cube does affect the flavour some what even with bigger beers but less noticeably.

Crash chilling is a bit like mash outs.
It preserve the hop schedule as a mash out would preserve the conversion of the more complex sugar.

Without going further into the murky water of scientifically trying to achieve a beer.
With the above knowledge and application I am confident that every no-chiller can achieve a beer a palatable as the chiller.
Time to read a bed time story to my youngest
Cherio

Matti

 

[kram]

I've no chilled from the beginning when I moved to AG. Flame out additions don't really exist anymore, I've shifted them to dry hops. I 'guesstimate' the late additions from chilled recipes and knock off 5-10 mins depending on the beer. I've taken Tonys approach (even though he's a chiller) recently and made bittering additions at 45 depending on the bittering hop. If it's a smooth as hell bittering hop 60 mins doesn't bother me. I don't have over bitter beers anymore but this could be due to the adjustments i've made over time. No real advice here! Like all systems, get to know its ins and outs and the beers balance out better.