Cube Bitterness?

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balconybrewer

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hi all,

i have been AGing for about 4 months now and have only 'no chilled', i have started to try other brews and am noticing that my brews are way more bitter compared with others of similar ibus

i.e. i have brewed a couple of plaes ales to about 30ibu but they are bitter as all hell, they are as bitter as a 50 ibu IPA

is this a result of the wort sitting near boiling point in the cube for a long time with hops still in there.............?

have i missed a step in 'no chilling' by which hops need to be strained before it is cubed, and yes i do whirlpool but i still get a fair bit of trub into the cube.

any advice appreciated. cheers
 
Do you have a pick up tube or anything?

Do you use flowers or pellets?

I'm assuming it IS hop bitterness and not yeast-derived as it's just popped up since you've no-chilled.
 
For one thing, the bitterness is relative. a 30 IBU can be more bitter from a sensory perspective than a 40 or even a 50 IBU, depending on the OG and FG of the relative beers. Hence the common use of BU:GU, and the more accurate, but less utilised BV scale.

Were the OG and FG of the beers in question simmilar? were there any major differences in the grain bills, especially in the specialty malts? Were there any process changes, particularly any that would effect utilisation?
 
Hi,

I do find that no-chilling adds some bitterness to the finished beer, but I don't think it would be much more than 5 IBU or so at most. I've taken to bittering my beers on the low end of the scale and just factoring in an additional couple of points of bitterness.

I've also noticed a lack of flavour an aroma from all my NC beers. Lately I've been just adding a bittering addition, and then a flameout for flavour. I'm tending to get the aroma from a dry hop addition.

I'm playing around with my hop schedules to see how I can best balance the beers...will post my results when I know them!

As for the trub, I whirlpool but I'm using my Hop Sock again (available from the above sponsors, no affiliation, yada yada) and I'm getting significantly less trub making its way into the cube and the fermenter, not that it should hurt your resulting beer at all though!


Cheers
 
This could be because you may carry a fair bit of trub and hops into the fermenter.
My first lot of no chills I managed to get a fair bit of trub into it.
I ended up racking it off the trub and cold break before it went into the fermenter.

If you whirl pool and check this out.

Linky
 
The increased bitterness could be due to water chemistry. If your water is hard, it will make the bitterness stand our a lot more. Its like drinking Pilsner Urquell and Baron's ESB. The Pils is 40 ibu and hardly tastes bitter at all due to the soft water. The Baron's ESB is 30 ibu and tastes quite bitter due to the pseudo Burton on Trent water profile.
 
The increased bitterness could be due to water chemistry. If your water is hard, it will make the bitterness stand our a lot more. Its like drinking Pilsner Urquell and Baron's ESB. The Pils is 40 ibu and hardly tastes bitter at all due to the soft water. The Baron's ESB is 30 ibu and tastes quite bitter due to the pseudo Burton on Trent water profile.

You're right in what you're saying, but....
I wouldn't have thought that it would make a difference to the same brewer using the same water supply....unless there is dabbling with water chem as part of the brewing practice? If there is no additions to the water, this would not change batch to batch for the same brewer (in most cases. Yes, water supplies vary, but surely not that much in such a short period?)
 
Ryan says he has always no chilled, so its unlikely that no chilling is causing the extra bitterness. What I did assume is that he is comparing with commercial beers of known bitterness, not beers brewed by other brewers with the same water.

I still think its hard water or allowing late hop additions into the cube - probably both
 
What I did assume is that he is comparing with commercial beers of known bitterness, not beers brewed by other brewers with the same water.

I thought he was comparing what he is currently brewing to his own previous brews.

Ryan, can you clarify, please, what exactly are you comparing these bitter brews to? I see where tims coming from, cos you're initial description could be interpreted either way.
 
Port Macquarie does not really have hard water.
Here is our local water profile, which I received direct from our local council.

Name: Port Macquarie
PH: 7.0

Calcium: 11.3
Magnesium: 3.9
Sodium: 12.0
Sulfate: 3.6
Chloride: 18.0
Bicarbonate: 44.7
 
i have tried other friends brews of similar grain and hop schedules and IBU's and BU:GU and can notice a big difference in bitterness,

maybe i need to add a false bottom to my kettle or use a hop sock if i want to keep 'no-chilling'

cheere
 
I can tell you this:

No chilling definatly increases your bitterness and decreases your aroma/flavour.

I have had very similar results to NickB, and have also moved to just bittering and flameout, maybe some dry hop for aroma.

Its pretty simple, you boil hops for longer to get more bitterness, when you no chill you are effectivly keeping the hop compounds (flavour and aroma) almost at boiling (80-90 degrees) for a longer period of time therefore convertying some of theem to bitterness.

I have also found that its probably about 5IBU of difference so i always bitter my beer to 5 ibu less than i want.

I have also found that different hops have different amounts of "extra bittering" from cubing, i think that probably has something to do with teh Beta and alpha... not sure about that part....

thats my experience anyway, YMMV
 
Troydo,

that makes sense to me and that was what i was getting @. and as you said it is simple, but i dont quite understanding the flavour hops then..... wouldnt they just totally convert to bitterness andresult in no flavour and aroma for that matter??????

that said i guess i can combat this by filtering out the hops before the wort goes into the cube, or do the flavour and aroma oils just convert to bitterness even though the pellets are removed............?

so many questions now i have a better think about it. cheers
 
Isomerisation of alpha acids after flame out is negligible. Perhaps I just know my system, but I usually get exactly the bitterness I'm aiming for.

Of the guys who aren't getting enough flavour and aroma from whirlpool additions, what amount of hops do you add? Pellets or flowers? How long do you whirlpool?
 
I can tell you this:

No chilling definatly increases your bitterness and decreases your aroma/flavour.

I have had very similar results to NickB, and have also moved to just bittering and flameout, maybe some dry hop for aroma.

Its pretty simple, you boil hops for longer to get more bitterness, when you no chill you are effectivly keeping the hop compounds (flavour and aroma) almost at boiling (80-90 degrees) for a longer period of time therefore convertying some of theem to bitterness.

I have also found that its probably about 5IBU of difference so i always bitter my beer to 5 ibu less than i want.

I have also found that different hops have different amounts of "extra bittering" from cubing, i think that probably has something to do with teh Beta and alpha... not sure about that part....

thats my experience anyway, YMMV

No-Chilling is almost destined to increase your bitterness - if you add late boil hops. The alpha acids from your 30min and 5min hops are going to stay dissolved and keep right on isomerising the whole time the cube is hot. There is no phsical agitation and the heat is lower than in a boil, so it wont be as high a rate, but its still going to happen.

The last two beers I made, I no-chilled taking this stuff into account.

The beers got no "late" hops, although they did get a small 30min addition for complexity in flavour - I do "cube hop" which I more or less treat as a flavour addition, it also gives a reasonably significant amount of bittering ( I calculate it to be the equivalent of a 20min addition with the same amount of hops) For aroma, there are no kettle additions or cube additions at all. - I Ultra Late Hop using a technique that is very similar to the "French Press Hopping" technique describe recently in BYO and on Basic Brewing Radio.

The Aroma addition is not added until 2/3rds of fermentation is complete - The hops are placed in a french press coffee maker, stirred and steeped for about 1min - then its pressed and the hot liquid is poured into the primary - the process is repeated to "sparge" the hops. You could steep for longer if you want, but I am trying to emulate the short contact time and rapid cooling you get from a hopback, so I keep the contact time to less than one minute.

The Vienna Lager that won champion beer at vicbrew - was aroma hopped in this fashion, although in its case, the hop juice was poured directly into the pre-filter keg and the beer was lagered for several weeks before filtering. I found that this gave a "vegetal" edge to the hoppiness, but it dissipated nicely with filtering and lagering. When the Ultra Late Hops are added to the fermentor... the vegetal thing does not seem to happen, but the hop character is not quite as pronounced.

The reason for all that versus a simple dry hop.... well, it doesn't smell or taste like dry hop, it smells and tastes like late addition hops.

I will keep experimenting with this as an easy way to compensate for the aroma decrease I see in no chill - so far I am happy with the results and I think it can be refined to te point where the affect of No-Chill on hop flavour/aroma can be completely compensated for.

Thirsty
 
i have tried other friends brews of similar grain and hop schedules and IBU's and BU:GU and can notice a big difference in bitterness,

maybe i need to add a false bottom to my kettle or use a hop sock if i want to keep 'no-chilling'

cheere

I agree that no chill will increase the bitterness. The degree to which it does so will depend, though, on how much late addition hop is in the brew. THis is one of the reasons I was hesitant to try NC, because bitter beers are not my thing at all. (I now NC all my beers, my late addition hops are in quite small amounts anyway, and the difference NC makes, at least in my case, is discernable, but not excessive)

But, here's a thought.....if your friends beer has similar IBU and BU:GU, and yours is (from what you are saying) a lot more bitter, are you using the same utilisation formulas? And are you using the same brewing software? If, for example, one is getting 30IBU using Rager, and the other is getting 30IBU using tinseth, then both will be "30IBU" but will be very different indeed......My understanding is that, even if using the 'same' formula (Tinseth comes to mind), promash will give different IBU level to Beersmith for identical recipes (I don't use promash myself, so can't check this, but I have read elswhere that this is the case. Can anyone using both programmes confirm or deny this?)

Not saying this is what is happenening, just offering it as a possibility. ;)
 
The Aroma addition is not added until 2/3rds of fermentation is complete - The hops are placed in a french press coffee maker, stirred and steeped for about 1min - then its pressed and the hot liquid is poured into the primary - the process is repeated to "sparge" the hops. You could steep for longer if you want, but I am trying to emulate the short contact time and rapid cooling you get from a hopback, so I keep the contact time to less than one minute.

Thanks for the informative (as usual) post TB. I have to say I have in some cases been underwhelmed with the flavour and aroma coming through in some of my NC brews.

My last brew, a cerveza-y ale-ish thing had the Glacier cube hopped so I've got higher hopes for the lemonless lemon flavour to come through. My next few brews will be some D-Saaz and NS summer ales so I think I'll give the ULH method a go as well.

Cheers :icon_cheers:

Soz
 
( I calculate it to be the equivalent of a 20min addition with the same amount of hops)

I doubt it would be that high. According to Beersmith, a 20 min addition of 28g of EKG in 40L gives 6 IBUs. I don't account for bitterness at all from my flameout additions, but there might be something to it. I have two cubes of Bitter sitting waiting for a ferment. I gave it 35IBUs or POR and Warrior at 60 mins and in the 40litre boil, it got 50g of EKG at flameout. So that should add ~10.7 IBUs. Will get some IBU members to taste the beer once fermented and see if they can estimate the IBUs. It'll either be 35 if late additions count for nothing, 45 if you're right with a 20 min bitterness equivalence, or somewhere in between.
 
Thats really good stuff TB, I will have to try that, because some beers need the aroma without the dryhop grassyness...

HMM things to think about....
 
great response TB, thanks heaps, sounds like alot of work but, thats why i went for the cubing option.

just bumping this one too get some more opinions, do most people agree with TB or do some just stick the the standard hop additions i.e. 60mins, 20mins, 5mins and make sure they just allow for a little extra bitterness from the cube???

a scenario that most of us can relate to is probably dr smurtos JSGA clone, do the no chillers out there stick to his hop schedule and just lower the 60mins addition....? maybe drS even nochills himself........?

cheers
 
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