Cube Bitterness?

[Stuster]

Any results yet Stuster?

Well. Umm. Actually, there was a small issue with this experiment related to my poor labelling of fermenters. I did this batch, and a saison at the same time. Mixed up the no-chill one with the saison one and transferred the wrong one to secondary, bottling the wrong one. No wonder the two batches tasted different. :blink: :lol:

Anyway, all sorted out now but one batch was bottled two weeks before the other. Just waiting for the no-chill one to carb up and the yeast to clear in the bottle. Should be another week or so and then I'll get some tastings done.

 

[matti]

Just reporting back on cube hopping.
I am currently drinking following recipe which has been in keg for about 3 weeks slowly carbing up and clearing without gelatine or finings of any kind.

I dropped a cascade plug weighing in at 14g from memory into cube no chilling.
I am detecting a slightly slick feeling on the tongue.
This could be many thing but it is a rather bitter number and not too displeasing.

Hopefully I can leave it alone for another few weeks and see if it will change its flavour perception.


Recipe Specifics
----------------

Batch Size (L): 20.00 Wort Size (L): 20.00
Total Grain (kg): 4.60
Anticipated OG: 1.055 Plato: 13.48
Anticipated SRM: 6.6
Anticipated IBU: 38.3
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75 %
Wort Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Pre-Boil Amounts
----------------

Evaporation Rate: 15.00 Percent Per Hour
Pre-Boil Wort Size: 23.53 L
Pre-Boil Gravity: 1.046 SG 11.53 Plato



Grain/Extract/Sugar

% Amount Name Origin Extract SRM
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
54.3 2.50 kg. Weyermann Pilsner Germany 1.030 2
21.7 1.00 kg. Munich Malt Australia 1.012 6
21.7 1.00 kg. Pale Malt(2-row) Great Britain 1.012 3
2.2 0.10 kg. JWM Crystal 140 Australia 1.001 74

Extract represented as SG.


Hops

Amount Name Form Alpha IBU Boil Time
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
15.00 g. Perle Pellet 6.30 15.2 60 min.
28.35 g. Willamette Pellet 6.00 20.8 40 min.
12.00 g. Willamette Pellet 6.00 2.3 10 min.
10.00 g. Cascade Pellet 5.75 0.0 0 min.


Yeast
-----
S-05


Mash Schedule
-------------

Mash Type: Single Step
Grain kg: 4.60

Water L: 16.56 - Before Additional Infusions

L Water Per kg Grain: 3.60 - Before Additional Infusions

Saccharification Rest Temp : 65 Time: 60+
Mash-out Rest Temp : 72 Time: 15
Sparge Temp : 78 Time: 45

 

[kabooby]

It's my understanding that in order to get bitterness from hops they need to be isomerised by boiling. Therefore hops at flameout, in the cube, dry hopped should add very little if any extra bitterness to your beer.

I haven't done any experiments myself, but I have not noticed any extra bitterness from my beers in the cube. Even the ones with big flame out additions.

Kabooby :unsure:

 

[Muggus]

This thread has changed my whole way of thinking.
I essentially no-chill my beers these days, and never seen to get the aromatic hops in the primary I want, and result to dry hopping in the secondary in large amounts for aromatic hops.
Yesterday I shifted my hop schedule forward 5 minutes, just to compensate for the extra time the wort is still 'boiling' whilst non-chilled, and try to pack some more flavour and aroma in there. Hope it works!

 

[troydo]

there is an interesting article in the BYO from the guys from stone brewing company, they add hops at whirlpool time, however they sit for 90mions at that temperature and they say that add alot of bitterness...

 

[Effect]

As soon as I get my arse into gear and get the counterflow chiller going, I am going to do a double batch (or split a smaller batch) and do a side by side test.

*Going to do 'normal' hop additions, i.e. 60 minute boil, 60, 10 and 0 min additions.

*No chill the first half and then counterflow chill the second. Will ferment with dried yeast in a temp controlled fridge.

*Using the same sized fermenter as well (well, actually the same fermenter) - which means I will be letting the no chill sit for as long as it takes to ferment the first batch.

*Bulk priming up to the same amount of carbonisation (and bottleing in the same sized and type of bottles) - what do you think? PET or Glass (I have an abundance of PET and only about 80 Glass bottles.


That is the way that I want to do it, but the only thing that has got me thinking that it isn't exactly the same is that the chilled wort beer will have about 3-4 weeks more in the bottle than the no-chilled wort. Might have to get some smaller jerry cans and use them to ferment in - that way I can ferment them at the same time. Which means I would only really want to leave the no-chilled wort for about 1 day so that the chilled wort doesn't get infected.

What are your thoughts on this method?

Anyone in adelaide is welcome to taste the beers as well...

Should be doing DrSmurto's Golden Ale for this one as most people have an idea about how it tastes...Will also try and make up a file reporting on the outcome etc (sort of like a year 8 science experiement)

 

[buttersd70]

Sounds good, phillip. As you said, the only real difference will be that one is goint to be in the bottle longer by about 3 weeks....if its aged to the point of 12 and 15 weeks in the bottle respectively, the difference caused by age will minimise to the point of being able to be discarded, I think, but thats quite some time to let it sit for experimental purposes....although, of course, the whole batch doesn't need to be left, just enough samples to conduct the experiment, and the rest can just be drunk as normal.

Other option is to ferment one in a cube if you have a spare, and do them side by side (assuming your brewing fridge has the capacity).....

 

[Effect]

Sounds good, phillip. As you said, the only real difference will be that one is goint to be in the bottle longer by about 3 weeks....if its aged to the point of 12 and 15 weeks in the bottle respectively, the difference caused by age will minimise to the point of being able to be discarded, I think, but thats quite some time to let it sit for experimental purposes....although, of course, the whole batch doesn't need to be left, just enough samples to conduct the experiment, and the rest can just be drunk as normal.

Other option is to ferment one in a cube if you have a spare, and do them side by side (assuming your brewing fridge has the capacity).....

Yeah, the side by side cubes or jerry cans is the way I think I might go. I thought about the 12 week and 15 week bottle conditioned beer would also be another option, but yeah, the 12 weeks I think is a bit too long for the experiement.

 

[MattC]

Hope this thread has not been forgotten, quite an interesting read, seems like there are a few differing opinions out there as to the effect of the NC method on bitterness.

Looking forward to hearing the results from Stuster's and Phillip's experiments!!

 

[MattC]

Hope this thread has not been forgotten,

 

[MattC]

Hope this thread has not been forgotten, quite an interesting read, seems like there are a few differing opinions out there as to the effect of the NC method on bitterness.

Looking forward to hearing the results from Stuster's and Phillip's experiments!!

 

[MattC]

Hope this thread has not b

 

[Bribie G]

hope this thread has n b . ..

Nope, not forgotten, I just had my first taste of my Burton Ale NC and it had a real late-developing bitter lingering aftertaste, and quite nice, and I was thinking "is that from the cubing or would it taste different if it had been rapidly chilled?" I have actually cut down on the bittering hops, from say 45g fuggles 60mins to 30 and upped the aroma hops as a late addition to the fermenter. Seems to be working.

 

[MattC]

Hope this thread has not b

Dont know how that happened ??????

 

[Bribie G]

Dont know how that happened ??????

I'm on a couple of other forums powered by Invision and it happens now and again when the server is slow. Probably Rudd's censorship Board is probing the site at the moment. h34r:

 

[Effect]

well, if I can get some more amarillo then I will do the golden ale again, one no chill and one counter-flow chilled.

Should plan to make this on either 31st of jan or 1st of feb...

 

[MattC]

The Aroma addition is not added until 2/3rds of fermentation is complete - The hops are placed in a french press coffee maker, stirred and steeped for about 1min - then its pressed and the hot liquid is poured into the primary - the process is repeated to "sparge" the hops. You could steep for longer if you want, but I am trying to emulate the short contact time and rapid cooling you get from a hopback, so I keep the contact time to less than one minute.

Thirsty

Thirsty Boy, What temp water do you use in this process?

 

[KHB]

Reviving an old thread, but im now using a hopsock and doing 60min 20min and flameout addition in the kettle and will be interested to see if the hopsock cancels out any added bitterness as im yet to try one made this way. Anyone out there do it this way?

 

[Stuster]

Well, sorry Matt, I have obviously missed this thread and not given the feedback on my test I promised. In brief, I found that there was a noticeable difference in flavour and aroma between the chilled and no-chilled batches. The chilled batch had a much stronger, brighter aroma/flavour and was definitely a better APA than the no-chilled batch. I didn't notice a significant difference in bitterness, but that might simply be due to the fact that the difference in hop flavour and aroma was so striking that other differences were much less noticeable. I'm still planning on doing this again as there were some stuff ups with the last batch, differences in time in the fermenter being a possible source of difference. And also to check whether I notice any bitterness difference. But I do think now that for the perfect APA, chilling might be the best option. Sad but true. Still, there are other ways round it such as dry hopping, the ultra late hopping notion etc. I'll try to get round to this soon, but there are so many other beers butting there way into my schedule (along with my general slackness) that I make no promises of it being soon. :icon_cheers:

 

[clean brewer]

Reviving an old thread, but im now using a hopsock and doing 60min 20min and flameout addition in the kettle and will be interested to see if the hopsock cancels out any added bitterness as im yet to try one made this way. Anyone out there do it this way?

Hey Scotsman,
I just got a hopsock aswell and used it on my last brew, ask a similar question in another Topic and the answer was that it will keep alot of the hop material out of the cube but the bittering compounds in the hops will have been released from the hops and still be dissolved into the wort..

Wont really matter on the 60min addition to much but im still sticking to 45min addition(for 60min) and cube hopping for the 20min addition(flavour) and dry hopping(if required for specific brew) after 7-10 days of fermentation for aroma... Getting good results with this method..

I still think with using the hopsock and by keeping most of the hop material out of the cube, you will decrease some bitterness though from the hops as im sure that all hasnt been released from them...