Crown Or Birko Urns - Extra Element Installation?

[crundle]

I have been reading the threads on over the side immersion heaters with interest since I have discovered that during winter, boils are quite average using my 40 litre Crown urn, and I have had to resort to boiling part of the wort on the stove to get to my target gravities in reasonable time.

It seems that although they do work, there is a question as to how long they last with the use brewers put them to, so I was wondering if anyone has any experience with fitting a second fixed element inside either the Crown or Birko urns they would be able to share?

I can get an over the side immersion heater from around the $100 mark, but I have concerns over how long it will last, but I don't know how easy it would be to fit a fixed heater coil through the side of the urn near the bottom, being such thin stainless steel sides. If they could be fitted fairly securely, it might be a better long term solution to overcoming the lack of a good boil in the Crown urn.

cheers for any advice,

Crundle

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Over the side - they last really well and 1 x 2400W is sufficient for a "single" batch boil all by itself. You can use them as a kind of a mash paddle that has the characteristic of being able to add heat.

You just have to be sure you are mentally organised enough to remember not to pull them out of the liquid while they are switched on.

Can I ask why you don't just put the lid on a little (say half or 2/3rds of the way on) to increase your boil vigor in your current urn?? Simply adjust your starting volumes down to cater for your new lower evaporation levels. And is your kettle insulated?? If not, do it - just wrap a towel around it during the boil.

As long as you are still boiling off 8+ % of your starting volume you are fine - I really can't see that you should need any extra grunt unless there is something wrong and/or you are really in a hurry.

Still, if you want extra grunt - I'd go over the side rather than trying to install another fixed element.

TB

 

[Pollux]

I brewed in my garage for the first time yesterday, having previously performed boils in my Crown urn in the kitchen.

I discovered my camping mat insulation was not going to be enough to help the crown have a decent boil, even with the lid 1/2 on.

So I grabbed the old sleeping bag I use to hold the mash temp, unzipped it, wrapped it round the urn over the camping mat and tucked some elastic over it.

The result was the best boil I have ever seen from the urn. The bag will now be a permanent fixture on brew day.

 

[flattop]

I get a good boil in the kitchen, it takes a while to get there (lid on) then i take the lid off halfway and i get a rolling boil but not a huge one.
The first couple of brews i did were on the balcony (much better for spills and mess) but the last one there was a 20knot wind and it took a long time to boil up even with a sheet of cardboard as a windbreak.

 

[QldKev]

I just don't get it.. These urms seem to be underpowered, and for the same money you can get a stock pot and a decent gas burner. Why go with the urn?

QldKev

 

[flattop]

Ready availability of electricity without having to stuff around with gas is one reason, can still use it or sell it as an urn is another.
I don't think they are underpowered really, but yes they are bordering on their maximum tolerance, i suspect it has more to do with max current draw on a 10a power point than anything else. I'm very happy with mine, it just a matter of adjusting your brew to your gear, no big deal.

 

[Bubba Q]

I use a 40lt Birko for BIAB and use camping mat insulation and reckon I hit a fairly decent rolling boil

 

[brando]

I am looking to buy a 40L urn myself and can't decide between Crown and Birko. I understand that Birko has a 15amp version that pumps out around 3000w vs the 2400w of the 10amp version.

I read on here somewhere that the 15amp needs a sparkie to set up a special power point, but I spoke to one the other day and he said that it should be right with a 10amp point so long as I'm not using it for hours on end. Apparently the 15amp plug has a longer earth prong, so I guess some modification would be needed.

 

[Pollux]

The general consensus is that the Crown has it's advantages in that the concealed element stops you from burning a bag if you choose to got the BIAB route and turn the element on while the bag is in the urn, but lacks the grunt for a hardcore boil. The birko being the opposite with it's exposed element.

 

[pokolbinguy]

I read on here somewhere that the 15amp needs a sparkie to set up a special power point, but I spoke to one the other day and he said that it should be right with a 10amp point so long as I'm not using it for hours on end. Apparently the 15amp plug has a longer earth prong, so I guess some modification would be needed.

Wait for the flaming on that one mate h34r:

To be on the safe side get a sparkie to put a 15 amp circuit in if you are going to use a 15amp element...not worth the risk and if you end up burning the house down then your insurance company won't have a bar of it.

If you want to be tight just get the sparkie to install the 15 amp plug on your power/switch board and then get yourself a heavy duty 15amp power lead to run to where you are brewing.

Pok

 

[flattop]

15A is a wider earth pin.... really do it right and save the risk and insurance problems...

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I just don't get it.. These urms seem to be underpowered, and for the same money you can get a stock pot and a decent gas burner. Why go with the urn?

QldKev

Stock pot - Burner - Gas Bottle - Regulator and hose

4 bits of gear and the need for somewhere fireproof to put it all.

Urn

1 bit of gear that you can use on your kitchen table

Remember - a lot of people choose BIAB in the first place because they want to minimise space and complexity - the urn option does that nicely.

In general they aren't underpowered - maybe the Crowns with the concealed elements are a little on the light side, but all the other brands manage a rolling boil easily @ 2400W. From a few different posts - I think the issue with the crown might well be the thermostat rather than the "power" - I have made a number of beers using only a 1850W element and had no trouble maintaining a rolling boil with that ... so a 2400W urn should have no issues from a pure grunt point of view.

There do seem to be a few people having issues with the crown urns now the weather has turned cold though - we need more tips from people who are using them without issue

 

[altone]

Err "slightly" off topic, but has anyone tried using one of those Fowlers Vacola preserving urns?
The ones with the temp controlled element.

Do they have enough grunt for a 20l plus boil ?

Just wondering as I can pick one up cheap, will probably buy it anyway.

 

[Bribie G]

If I'm not mistaken Wonderwoman on the forum has one and may be able to comment.

As a Birko owner I get great performance and a good boil, and the bag isn't in the urn while it's powered up (I use passive lagging during a mash, and I always mash 90 mins and get very little temp drop).

 

[QldKev]

Stock pot - Burner - Gas Bottle - Regulator and hose

4 bits of gear and the need for somewhere fireproof to put it all.

Urn

1 bit of gear that you can use on your kitchen table

Remember - a lot of people choose BIAB in the first place because they want to minimise space and complexity - the urn option does that nicely.

In general they aren't underpowered - maybe the Crowns with the concealed elements are a little on the light side, but all the other brands manage a rolling boil easily @ 2400W. From a few different posts - I think the issue with the crown might well be the thermostat rather than the "power" - I have made a number of beers using only a 1850W element and had no trouble maintaining a rolling boil with that ... so a 2400W urn should have no issues from a pure grunt point of view.

There do seem to be a few people having issues with the crown urns now the weather has turned cold though - we need more tips from people who are using them without issue

OK, I can see the idea better now. The urn is a lot better looking, like you said one peice of gear, and for people in an apartment/too cold to go outside the use inside would be really cool to use it in the house. So the tradeoff for a bit longer to get to the boil suddenly seems more understandable.

QldKev

 

[Bribie G]

I use mine in the garage so the space / temperature thing doesn't really matter in my case, but I just love the convenience. Especially as I'm going into kegging shortly the size is perfect to do a keg plus six tallies per brew. And if I wanted to do double batches I'd happily splurge another 300 for a second urn and do a double brew in tandem, after all that's what lots of guys here pay for their march pump setups, stands, plate chillers whatever. Cheap hobby compared to renovating Monaros, windsurfing, tithing to Hillsong, brothel creeping, whatever

 

[crundle]

I use a 40lt Birko for BIAB and use camping mat insulation and reckon I hit a fairly decent rolling boil

Hi Bubba Q,

I noticed in the pic that you had a camping mat around the urn. Do you have it wrapped around the urn constantly (ie not just for mashing, but boiling also) and if so, how does it stand up to the boiling temperatures?

During warmer weather, my Crown worked well enough, with an evaporation of around 7% with the lid off and 10% with the lid half over the urn, but this cold weather has really made it difficult, with very little evaporation taking place. I have tried in the past to reduce the initial amount of water to minimise the effects of a low evaporation rate, but I was getting really poor extraction from the grain, and never hitting my gravities, so I went back to using around 35 litres of water for a 5.75 kg grain bill. I am now hitting my targets well, but the downside is having to boil for longer than I would like to evaporate off enough water.

I like the idea of covering the sides of the urn with insulation to keep the heat from escaping there, and helping the evaporation rate, but it seems that with the Crown at least, the thermostat wont allow a constant rolling boil. Does the Birko keep a constant rolling boil, or is it like the Crown, where it boils for a bit, then clicks off, then gets to the boil again?

Insulation couldn't hurt, and is a nice cheap option to assist the boil as well as the mash, but during winter at least for me, I think I might need the extra help that an immersion heater can give me. I gather though that no one has put a fixed element into one of these urns?

thanks for the input all,

Crundle

 

[Bubba Q]

Hi Bubba Q,

I noticed in the pic that you had a camping mat around the urn. Do you have it wrapped around the urn constantly (ie not just for mashing, but boiling also) and if so, how does it stand up to the boiling temperatures?

During warmer weather, my Crown worked well enough, with an evaporation of around 7% with the lid off and 10% with the lid half over the urn, but this cold weather has really made it difficult, with very little evaporation taking place. I have tried in the past to reduce the initial amount of water to minimise the effects of a low evaporation rate, but I was getting really poor extraction from the grain, and never hitting my gravities, so I went back to using around 35 litres of water for a 5.75 kg grain bill. I am now hitting my targets well, but the downside is having to boil for longer than I would like to evaporate off enough water.

I like the idea of covering the sides of the urn with insulation to keep the heat from escaping there, and helping the evaporation rate, but it seems that with the Crown at least, the thermostat wont allow a constant rolling boil. Does the Birko keep a constant rolling boil, or is it like the Crown, where it boils for a bit, then clicks off, then gets to the boil again?

Insulation couldn't hurt, and is a nice cheap option to assist the boil as well as the mash, but during winter at least for me, I think I might need the extra help that an immersion heater can give me. I gather though that no one has put a fixed element into one of these urns?

thanks for the input all,

Crundle

I have the mat on my urn constantly, it is simply attached with some cheap tie down straps from bunnings. The only drama I have had is that I wasnt paying attention during the boil and had a bit of a boil over. I simply unstrapped it and gave it a rinse afterwards. It hasnt melted onto the sides if thats what you are worried about.

With the birko I have no drama's hitting a rolling boil and keeping it that way without the thermo kicking in.

 

[crundle]

Thanks for that Bubba Q, I will head down to Clark rubber tomorrow to look over what they have. Will see if I can work out some way to cover the lid also for the mash (will also still use the doonah over the top of the whole shebang for mashing)

Crundle

 

[Renegade]

While on the Urn topic, BribieG do you find that with the exposed element that it's harder to clean ? I find that even if I steep grains or do a mini mash in a saucepan, after I strain the husks off, that ensuing boil often leaves small patches of bkack burnt on gunk on the bottom. Not enough to taint the beer flavour, but a pain to clean (lots of elbow grease) . You may have no such instances with a bag for all I know.

And if you get a chance, is it possible to take a picture of the Birko's internal base with the element ? im leaning towards the Birko (later in the year) because it makes sense that an exposed element will be a bit more efficient. Just wondering about the cleaning.