Cooper's "New Style" Fermenters

[livo]

A while ago (not sure how long) Coopers introduced the new style fermenters which do not have an airlock. Big bucket with a Krausen Kollar and lid that just fit inside each other. They must just rely on CO2 presence to keep out nasties. You don't need to use the Krausen Kollar for low activity beer, I've found. Anyway, I'm interested to know if anybody has any experience with these? Positive or negative.

I have 2 which I was using without issue. I posted a little while ago about a problem I had and while nothing that severe has repeated, I have had a few "funky" brews, and the common denominator is these fermenters. I sometimes have as many as 6 fermenters on the go at once and there is one thing that repeats with these 2 that doesn't occur with the traditional airlock / bubbler buckets.

By the end of fermentation (bottling day), all of my airlocked fermenters have had the yeast flocculate to the bottom and the top surface is usually "glassy" clean, to use an old surfing description. However, what I have noticed with the 2 Coopers FVs is that the surface has the white powdery "yeast" or other organism (lacto???) across the surface. Tasting it while performing SG testing does not indicate "off" flavours but the bottled beer is not what I've come to expect.

Just wondering what the white powder is likely to be, (harmful to the brew), and if anybody else has had issues with these FVs.

 

[TheWiggman]

I've had no issues with the one I have. Major gripe is the physical size, it won't fit in my fermenting fridge so I have to be selective with what I'm brewing and how I control temp. My others are the O.G. Coopers fermenters, albeit the airlock does not bubble like it once did.
The major criticism I've heard is leaking taps which can be resolved with some olive oil. To date I have had no infections in the new design.

 

[livo]

Yes. They are big. As I said, I don't use the KK anymore. I wonder if that's an issue with them. Can't see why it would be other than the fact it would create a thicker CO2 blanket.

I'm using the same cleaning and sanitizing regime for all my FVs, so I don't know why these ones are causing this issue, when my other 4 are working just fine. I have 2 Generic unbranded lidded bucket style FVs I bought 20 years ago and 2 Copper Tun barrel type FV's with screw on lids I've acquired more recently which are not a problem, whereas you'd think they'd be harder to get properly clean.

I've had no trouble with the taps leaking and I have 2 different types. One just pulls apart, which has black rubber seals. The other is a white plastic job that the top comes off after turning it 90 degrees, and it has a pink rubber seal.

Have you tried replacing the grommet? I do mine fairly regularly.

 

[Half-baked]

The powdery layer sounds like the start of a pellicle, if so then they are both infected. Might be the design, depends on where the gas get out… or in.

Tbh, with those things I’d be more worried about oxygen getting in than infection, which would be a good reason for the poorer tasting beer

 

[Eddy Monsoon]

Yep, too big for my brew fridge and the tap leak

and the white stuff, also have had that and believe it causes frothing of bottled beer

 

[livo]

Yes Eddy. One thing I've noticed is frothy bottles. Not every bottle, but with the most recent batch there have been a few that gushed when opened.

 

[livo]

The powdery layer sounds like the start of a pellicle, if so then they are both infected. Might be the design, depends on where the gas get out… or in.

Tbh, with those things I’d be more worried about oxygen getting in than infection, which would be a good reason for the poorer tasting beer

I'd be very interested to know why I'm getting this only with these 2 FVs. As I said, I use the same cleaning and sanitising procedure for all 6 of my fermenters and the problem is recurring with just these 2.

I bulk prime in, and bottle from a different drum used only for that purpose. Immediately after I empty the FV into the sanitised priming / bottling drum, before I begin bottling, I wash it out and use a nylon scourer backed kitchen sponge to scrub any yeast ring, followed by thorough rinsing and hosing out including running water out through the tap. When possible, I then sun dry. Before adding the next brew I mix up a fresh batch of Starsan and thoroughly soak all surface areas of the FV and lid, leaving it to wet while other preparation is done. I only completely empty the Starsan from the FV immediately before beginning to add ingredients, also running some through the tap so the Starsan is in contact for a fair amount of time. With these 2 FVs the taps are removed, taken apart, washed and sanitised every time.

I've been using this procedure for a long time, usually without issue, but for some reason these 2 Coopers FVs have gone bad. I did once have a different FV that continually turned out bad beer. I ended up tossing it.

I have them full again now, as well as 2 others, so if I get the white powder again, I'll photograph it to post. If this occurs, I'll do a full immersion anti-bacterial soak of the FVs inside a 60 litre plastic bin and try them again. If this fails, out they go and I'll email Coopers to inform them.

Exact same beer made on the same day in all 4 FVs running at the moment. This will indicate if the problem is the Coopers FVs.

 

[TwoCrows]

If you are using the two-piece tap (Snap Cap) with the double Oring.
The Orings and the internals are an infection point.
The lever side has the rubber cover, pull the rubber back from the housing and inspect the internals. This is the biggest issue with these taps.

 

[Eddy Monsoon]

Yes Eddy. One thing I've noticed is frothy bottles. Not every bottle, but with the most recent batch there have been a few that gushed when opened.

The pellicle may be from your water supply, is everything boiled ?

 

[eldertaco]

Frothy bottles is definitely a sign of some kind of infection. I'd be going with TwoCrows' suggestion and breaking down whatever tap is on these vessels and taking a look.

Personally after any sign of infection like you've had I'd be giving the whole lot a soak in a caustic soda solution. If you do decide to go down this route make you wear appropriate PPE, caustic is no joke.

 

[TwoCrows]

I recently put this style fermenter back into use after being in storage for 4 years. It has literally sat on the ground in a garden shed.
I put the tap parts in pre boiled water and treated as per fermenter.
I first poured boiling water on it. I then used oxiclean. I then used phosphoric acid. I then finally used starsan.

 

[livo]

It isn't water if my other 4 fermenters are fine and these 2 aren't. Same water. I've got 1 of each style tap. The white one (sounds like the one you describe 2crows) and the other style, which has large black grommet seals going into the fermenter and operating the flow. I will pull them apart and clean thoroughly.

Isn't Starsan just phosphoric acid anyway, mixed with proprietary additives (detergents)? What strength phosphoric acid are you using? I have concentrate pH down for hydroponics which is the same.

 

[YAPN]

My Coopers fermenter only lasted one brew. Stirred up a kit & kilo. Afterward I went to clean it and found I'd scored the inside pretty badly. The plastic is way softer than the Bunnings water barrels. I figured there was no chance of sanitising it properly so it went to the kerb.

I just use the barrels now, no airlock, no lid, just glad-wrap and a rubber band.

 

[livo]

I use the Bunnings barrel as my priming / bottling drum.

 

[livo]

Update:

It is definitely a problem with these 2 FVs. Powdery scum on the surface already and it tastes like vinegar when I did an SG sample today. The other 2 air-locked (bubbler) FVs are perfect. Fully fermented out, clear and clean and taste fine, ready to bottle. All 4 brews are identical in every way. So, since this is now 8 out of 8 (I think) with these FVs and the same problem, that's good enough for me to say it's these drums or taps. My money is probably on the taps.

It is obviously getting worse as while tasting of previous batches was not too bad and I proceeded to bottle and drink, these ones are going down the drain today. The previous brews weren't good beer by any means, but not "off" bad either. I've been able to drink them. These 2 are not going to be bottled. Waste of time.

I'm going to disassemble the taps and attempt to clean them, before thoroughly cleaning and sanitising the whole lot and doing another test run with a cheap WW Home Brand Lager Can. If this fails, I'll but 2 replacement taps.

 

[TwoCrows]

Sad day and frustrating having to dump beer. I used the cooper fermenters for many years. Very easy to look after, 2 pieces and a tap.
I did change out the taps a few times as insurance.
I moved away from this type of fermenter for the pressure type as I went from bottling to corny kegs.

 

[livo]

Twocrows, could you tell me what phosphoric acid you use please? As I said, I have some concentrate pure stuff that goes by the name of pH Down which is used to lower pH of hydroponic nutrient solution, but I'm not sure what concentration you'd use for brewing sanitation purposes.

I just pulled the taps apart. The older style doesn't appear to be serviceable with replacement parts and is no longer available. The Snap Tap is a mess. The pink coloured main operating bung has black stains (mould??) and it is not available as a replacement part. I presently have everything soaking in vinegar bleach, which I'll just leave all day. The O-rings and bung rubber are in very strong concentrate so nothing should survive that, and I have one FV with the other tap in filled with water bleach vinegar. 60 ml Bleach, 30 ml 2x Vinegar and 30 litres water. I'll swap the taps and FVs over later and do the other one once the tap parts have soaked in the concentrate for a few hours.

Replacement Snap Taps are only $6.25 and free postage if you only buy 2, or 1 with certain other pieces. I'll order 2 new taps this evening.

However!!! Problem #2 with these things is that when I popped the lid today to inspect and empty them, there were bugs inside. In the first FV at least 1 was identified as a Vinegar Fly and 2 were Weevils while a 4th insect was unknown (possibly another fly). The other FV only had 1 bug inside, but the question obviously is how can bugs get inside under the lid and into the FV in the first place? Maybe I need to go back to using the KK. I just assumed that you didn't really need it and when you read the instructions for the use of these FVs it tells you to lift the KK out after initial high Krauson and just use the lid after this.

The insects are a nuisance, but I doubt they are the cause of the main problem. I'll have to locate the source of the Weevils though, as I've just noticed a few crawling around my benches as well.

 

[Paleman]

A while ago (not sure how long) Coopers introduced the new style fermenters which do not have an airlock. Big bucket with a Krausen Kollar and lid that just fit inside each other. They must just rely on CO2 presence to keep out nasties. You don't need to use the Krausen Kollar for low activity beer, I've found. Anyway, I'm interested to know if anybody has any experience with these? Positive or negative.

I have 2 which I was using without issue. I posted a little while ago about a problem I had and while nothing that severe has repeated, I have had a few "funky" brews, and the common denominator is these fermenters. I sometimes have as many as 6 fermenters on the go at once and there is one thing that repeats with these 2 that doesn't occur with the traditional airlock / bubbler buckets.

By the end of fermentation (bottling day), all of my airlocked fermenters have had the yeast flocculate to the bottom and the top surface is usually "glassy" clean, to use an old surfing description. However, what I have noticed with the 2 Coopers FVs is that the surface has the white powdery "yeast" or other organism (lacto???) across the surface. Tasting it while performing SG testing does not indicate "off" flavours but the bottled beer is not what I've come to expect.

Just wondering what the white powder is likely to be, (harmful to the brew), and if anybody else has had issues with these FVs.

They've been out for many years from memory, so not really new style. I use them. Very convenient I think, especially when cold crashing, you dont have to think twice about suck back.
I've never had any issues. I used to pressure ferment but gave that up as a PITA. Went back to using Coopers Fermenters.

 

[Paleman]

Twocrows, could you tell me what phosphoric acid you use please? As I said, I have some concentrate pure stuff that goes by the name of pH Down which is used to lower pH of hydroponic nutrient solution, but I'm not sure what concentration you'd use for brewing sanitation purposes.

I just pulled the taps apart. The older style doesn't appear to be serviceable with replacement parts and is no longer available. The Snap Tap is a mess. The pink coloured main operating bung has black stains (mould??) and it is not available as a replacement part. I presently have everything soaking in vinegar bleach, which I'll just leave all day. The O-rings and bung rubber are in very strong concentrate so nothing should survive that, and I have one FV with the other tap in filled with water bleach vinegar. 60 ml Bleach, 30 ml 2x Vinegar and 30 litres water. I'll swap the taps and FVs over later and do the other one once the tap parts have soaked in the concentrate for a few hours.

Replacement Snap Taps are only $6.25 and free postage if you only buy 2, or 1 with certain other pieces. I'll order 2 new taps this evening.

However!!! Problem #2 with these things is that when I popped the lid today to inspect and empty them, there were bugs inside. In the first FV at least 1 was identified as a Vinegar Fly and 2 were Weevils while a 4th insect was unknown (possibly another fly). The other FV only had 1 bug inside, but the question obviously is how can bugs get inside under the lid and into the FV in the first place? Maybe I need to go back to using the KK. I just assumed that you didn't really need it and when you read the instructions for the use of these FVs it tells you to lift the KK out after initial high Krauson and just use the lid after this.

The insects are a nuisance, but I doubt they are the cause of the main problem. I'll have to locate the source of the Weevils though, as I've just noticed a few crawling around my benches as well.

Do you have a fermenter fridge? Nothing should get in that. If not I recommend you invest in one.

 

[livo]

I have one but I can't put 6 FVs in it.