cooling 100L of wort fast?

[lael]

ok - so I just brewed with the braumonster for the second time.... and waited 1.5 hours to get the wort from boiling to 30C. Down to 50C or so wasn't so bad - maybe 20-30mins. But... rapidly realising that my immersion chiller that was brilliant for 20L batch and passable for 40/50L is not going to cut it for 90L of hot wort. The wort is in the ferm freezer dropping overnight for pitching (sanitised etc and airlocks in place...)

From looking around after my last brew day it looks like the options are 1. - recirculate into an ice bath after 50C 2. counterflow chiller 3. plate chiller. OR - 2 or 3 with #1

Any suggestions / personal experience on what to use and why? I kind of like an immersion chiller cause there isn't possibility of blockages / sanitisation issues on the inside of chiller.

Any ideas and experiences very much appreciated!

 

[pk.sax]

I'm thinking if you brew with yeast ready to pitch you could brew slightly under volume and put a 5kg bag of ice in there. They advertise the ice as being made sanitary so as long as you pitch quickly can't see an issue but the chilling might make life easier.

 

[peas_and_corn]

Go for the plate chiller, it's convenient

 

[Beerisyummy]

Go for the plate chiller, it's convenient

I've been using one of these for some time now. They really do work quickly ( provided the water supply is fairly cool).

One thing to note, is that it adds an extra filter and an extra couple of steps to my system. The filter stops blockages and the plate chiller gets 10 minutes of boiling wort at the beginning and end of the boil.
Without that, the plate chiller would be in the bin by now.

 

[MastersBrewery]

I have a home made counter flow chiller made from 1/2 inch ss tube works well, and I still have half of the coil sitting in the shed. Might be worth a try out come brew day happy to bring with.

 

[nathan_madness]

I've got 2 of the MM 30 plates. I run tap water through the 1st one then it feeds it's wort into the second chiller where I have recirculated ice water running through. I can chill from boil to 12 degrees pumping through with my March pump fully open. I use 3 bags of ice to chill 80L.

 

[dent]

I would argue that the benefits of chilling past 50 degrees or so are very limited. I would just put it in your fermenter/s at that point and use your fridge or whatever to get it down to pitching temp -- tomorrow. Which I guess where you are at already.

That way you are not at a the mercy of the tap water temperature, and you won't be tempted to pitch yeast at unduly high temperatures.

 

[lael]

I have a home made counter flow chiller made from 1/2 inch ss tube works well, and I still have half of the coil sitting in the shed. Might be worth a try out come brew day happy to bring with.

That would be awesome!

 

[lael]

I've been using one of these for some time now. They really do work quickly ( provided the water supply is fairly cool).

One thing to note, is that it adds an extra filter and an extra couple of steps to my system. The filter stops blockages and the plate chiller gets 10 minutes of boiling wort at the beginning and end of the boil.
Without that, the plate chiller would be in the bin by now.

What sort of filter are you using pre-chiller? The whole blockage / gunk in plate chiller is what I am hesitant about with them. What is the clean up process like?

I think I need to figure out what size etc it is worth getting.
What size batch are you chilling - to what temp, using what size chiller and with what method - eg: chilled / ice, recirculating?

 

[lael]

I've got 2 of the MM 30 plates. I run tap water through the 1st one then it feeds it's wort into the second chiller where I have recirculated ice water running through. I can chill from boil to 12 degrees pumping through with my March pump fully open. I use 3 bags of ice to chill 80L.

these ones? http://www.mashmaster.com/p/1141466/chillout-mkiii---30-plate.html

How long does it take to chill the entire batch? Running tap water wide open on the first one? recirculating at all?
12 degrees is cold! I assume that is for lagers? - What size of container are you dumping the ice in and recirculating through for the second plate?

one of the reasons that jamil and co suggest an immersion is better is that the entire wort body drops below 80C very quickly - which prevents DMS (I think that is the temp) and I think hop isomerisation temp is also 80C? - so... if we can get all the wort below 80C quickly, does that mean we keep hop flavour and aroma from late additions? (I assume those compounds are volatile at different temps? anyone know what they are?) - do you use any recirculation to chill the entire wort before running through both plate chillers?

and similar to above - what's your clean up process like?

 

[lael]

I would argue that the benefits of chilling past 50 degrees or so are very limited. I would just put it in your fermenter/s at that point and use your fridge or whatever to get it down to pitching temp -- tomorrow. Which I guess where you are at already.

That way you are not at a the mercy of the tap water temperature, and you won't be tempted to pitch yeast at unduly high temperatures.

Why past 50 degrees?

 

[lael]

Thanks so much for everyone's help - this is awesome - been doing a bunch of reading online also. It looks like a bunch of people in the USA that are using immersion chillers have 50' (around 17m or so) copper chillers. That's pretty big... and copper here isn't too cheap. Though it doesn't seem like there is a cheap way to solve this and get efficient heat transfer. (except no chilling... but that is not chilling...)

 

[dent]

Why past 50 degrees?

By then hop isomerisation, loss of hop aromatics, and DMS generation are no longer happening (enough to matter). I quoted 50 degrees since the OP seemed to be happy to get that far.

 

[Donske]

Thanks so much for everyone's help - this is awesome - been doing a bunch of reading online also. It looks like a bunch of people in the USA that are using immersion chillers have 50' (around 17m or so) copper chillers. That's pretty big... and copper here isn't too cheap. Though it doesn't seem like there is a cheap way to solve this and get efficient heat transfer. (except no chilling... but that is not chilling...)

I have a 50' 5/8" copper immersion chiller, it's probably not what you're looking for, it gets a double batch to 40°C pretty quick and then really struggles to get below 30°C. I doubt it would get 100L batches down anywhere near quick enough.

 

[mb-squared]

I've got 2 of the MM 30 plates. I run tap water through the 1st one then it feeds it's wort into the second chiller where I have recirculated ice water running through. I can chill from boil to 12 degrees pumping through with my March pump fully open. I use 3 bags of ice to chill 80L.

I do pretty much the same thing. Boiling wort hits the CFC first with just garden hose water (which then goes into the pool, which only gets topped up on brew days), then its on to my HERMS coil which sits in the HLT that is now full of 3 bags of ice. I get 60L from boiling to 12C in <15 minutes and I get the most amazing cold break, which really helps with clarity and longevity of the beer (or so they say...)

 

[Beerisyummy]

What sort of filter are you using pre-chiller? The whole blockage / gunk in plate chiller is what I am hesitant about with them. What is the clean up process like?

I think I need to figure out what size etc it is worth getting.
What size batch are you chilling - to what temp, using what size chiller and with what method - eg: chilled / ice, recirculating?

I've been using stainless steel mesh in a water filter housing to pre filter. Prior to this I was using hop socks only.

For clean up I just flush it back and forth with the 90psi tap water before storing it wet.
It still has some gunk in it, but I normally give the whole system a run through, with a small amount of boiling water, before starting another batch.That tends to clean out any left over gunk.

The plate chiller I have is the 30 plate one sold at most places. I don't use ice and I never have the tap on full flow (both of which would increase cooling capacity).
My method involves getting a good whirlpool going to keep the hops away from the pump pickup, then recirculating back into the pot until I'm down around the 60c mark. At this point I usually get bored and just start running the chiller into the FV. It usually comes out at around 25c at this point. The fridge does the rest.

I'm only ever doing 40 odd litres at a time, although it's pretty easy to scale things up to your size batch. The plate chillers will take 100c wort and spit it out just above tap temps, given a good supply of water and a slowed throughput.

The biggest downside to a plate chiller is that they clog and are hard to clean.

 

[nathan_madness]

these ones? http://www.mashmaster.com/p/1141466/chillout-mkiii---30-plate.html

How long does it take to chill the entire batch? Running tap water wide open on the first one? recirculating at all?
12 degrees is cold! I assume that is for lagers? - What size of container are you dumping the ice in and recirculating through for the second plate?

one of the reasons that jamil and co suggest an immersion is better is that the entire wort body drops below 80C very quickly - which prevents DMS (I think that is the temp) and I think hop isomerisation temp is also 80C? - so... if we can get all the wort below 80C quickly, does that mean we keep hop flavour and aroma from late additions? (I assume those compounds are volatile at different temps? anyone know what they are?) - do you use any recirculation to chill the entire wort before running through both plate chillers?

and similar to above - what's your clean up process like?

Well the 815 March is capable of 30LPM, but you have to allow for the "Hop Rocket" and chillers reducing the flow rate a little. I would say it takes about 6 minutes to do the entire batch. I split my batches in to 3 x 25L fermenters so there is a bit of stop and starting. My two chillers are daisy chained together so there is no secondary container it's straight into the fermenter.

I use one of those 50L soft pastic buckets that you can get at Bunnings for my salty ice water and a pump off my old marine fishtank to recirculate it.

As I mentioned above I use a "Hop Rocket" for adding that extra hop aroma and also it works as an awesome filter.

I don't have any other chilling method as 6 minutes is fast enough for me.

Clean up is simple. Remove the 2 chillers connect them to the purge line on your house hot water system and blast high pressure hot water through them to clean out the gunk. I clean my mash tun and then wash it with PBW recirculating it like i'm doing a mash through the HERMS coil. I connect my the MLT in to the the chillers daisy chained together and recirculate back in the MLT. Basically recirculating hot PBW through the chillers for 20 or so minutes while I clean up. I dump all my fittings etc. on my false bottom and let the MLT wash the lot it's so simple. Then just flush with clean water and store them upside down on a slight angle to dry. On the brew day I fill the chillers with Starsan first before anything else so they sit there for 3 or more hours sanitising.

 

[nathan_madness]

I forgot to mention. Yes, it's for lagers. I really want to do cold start lagers so my plan is to get the wort into the fermenters at around 6-8°C. I will be able to do this with more ice and slower flow rate on the pump. My next planned batch is a triple batch of German Pils on the 6th of April so I will let you know.

 

[lael]

Thanks so much everyone for your feedback! the details are super helpful for figuring out how these things work in practice.

nathan - your two chillers are sounding pretty good - what happens if / when they clog? ever had it happen? Are you pumping the wort through the hop rocket and then through the two plate chillers in series? and pumping ice water through the second chiller also? (so two pumps? or gravity fed wort?)

One thing I'm super curious about... the wort gets cold inside the plate chiller - what happens to the cold break?

beerisyummy - you mentioned getting blockages - what's your experience?
I saw http://www.biasboating.com.au/In_Line_Filter_1_p/1324.htm and something similar to http://www.biasboating.com.au/Inlet_Filter_p/7545.htm at bias boating last time I was there. What filter are you using for yours? How long does it take you to get below 60C?

I have a 50' 5/8" copper immersion chiller, it's probably not what you're looking for, it gets a double batch to 40°C pretty quick and then really struggles to get below 30°C. I doubt it would get 100L batches down anywhere near quick enough.

Thanks Donske! - this is really helpful to know. Would a 1/2" diameter be any more effective for heat transfer? You're right though, doesn't sound like it would cope.

Sounds like a rule of thumb is 1 bag of ice for each 20L...

 

[nathan_madness]

I have never had one clog. and don't think I ever will. Either use a hop sock/spider or whirlpool (takes longer to chill as you have to wait for the whirlpool to settle). Yeah, I use a March 815 to pump the wort into the Hop Rocket which then feeds into the daisy chained chillers. I use a cheap fish tank / pond pump ($30) to recirculate the salty ice water.

The cold break will end up in your fermenter. I use the Hop Rocket to filter and it works perfectly and the wort runs clear when hot when chilled I end up with about 5mm of cold break at the bottom of a 25L batch.