Chloramine and Potassium Metabisulfite

[Lecterfan]

Hello water gurus.

If I am reading p. 427 of Palmer and Kaminski's "Water" correctly, then I need to use 9mg/l of potassium metabisulfite to treat water that has 3mg/l of chloramine in it?

I've been advised by the water authority that it leaves the plant at that rate and is reduced down to roughly 2mg/l by the time it gets to my suburb, but as I understand it, treating for 3mg/l is safe and has no obvious detrimental effecs.

Futher, if my primitve understanding is correct, then the only thing I need to watch is the residual (don't know if that is the correct word in this context) sulphates, as in my early days of brewing I made some horrid beers with excess sulphates, so I will need to take that into account when brewing darker and/or malt driven beers.

The last water report for my region showed 34mg/l sulphate and 43mg/l chloride, so a few extra mg/l of either/both should be fine for general light-darkish ales etc. (apparently it adds 2.7 mg/l sulphate and 1 mg/l of chloride, so negligible effects).

Any helpful comments/reassurances/corrections?

Cheers,
LF.


Edit: tried to attach screen shot of text - didn't work.

 

[manticle]

Before treating - are you noticing issues related to chlorine?

If metabisulphite addition is required, try minimal additions and tweak upwards if results warrant.
My understanding is that sulfate contribution from campden is minimal unless you majorly od.

Drsmurto would be my goto on this though. PM

 

[Lecterfan]

Yes, an obvious flavour difference that changes the moment I use different water - i.e. Billygoat's tank water or store bought. I don't know if it is a "flaw" (i.e. related to chlorophenols etc), but all I can say is that the chlorine-type taste (a kind of sharpness that tastes, well, a lot like my tap water) of the water persists in the beer and while it suits some APAs, it is detracting from English ales and lagers (imho). Edit: I have confirmed it is chloramine and the rates with Central Highlands Water.

I've messed around with water in the past but as of yesterday I have a heap more research time on my hands and am not letting it go idle.

 

[manticle]

Did you become a doctor?

 

[Matplat]

This is the bit in Bru'n'water about metabisulphite... thanks Martin


Metabisulfite (Campden Tablet) addition is effective for chlorine and chloramine removal. The tablets are either potassium metabisulfite or sodium metabisulfite. Both are effective in disinfectant removal. When sodium content in the brewing water is a concern, potassium metabisulfite may be preferred. Moderate potassium content in brewing water generally has little effect on brewing performance or taste. Adding these compounds at a rate of about 9 milligrams per liter (~9 milligrams per liter or ~1 tablet per 75 liters) will dechlorinate typical municipal water and leave residual concentrations of about 3 ppm potassium or 2 ppm sodium (depending on the chemical used) and 8 ppm sulfate and 3 ppm chloride. These ion contributions are relatively insignificant and can be ignored in practice.

 

[Lecterfan]

Did you become a doctor?

I submitted, I wait for the examiners to decide on the next bit. Still lecturing/tutoring, probably return to psych part-time next year to finish off the vocational quals as another feather in the cap.

 

[Matplat]

Dunno if the flavour you describe is due to chlorine, I got hit by chlorine the first time I brewed with town water, having previously used tank water.

The flavour of band-aid was unmistakable and un-drinkable. Been using sodium metabisulphite ever since with no probs...

 

[manticle]

I submitted, I wait for the examiners to decide on the next bit. Still lecturing/tutoring, probably return to psych part-time next year to finish off the vocational quals as another feather in the cap.

Good effort and good luck

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

If I am reading p. 427 of Palmer and Kaminski's "Water" correctly, then I need to use 9mg/l of potassium metabisulfite to treat water that has 3mg/l of chloramine in it?

Any helpful comments/reassurances/corrections?

Never take anything in Palmer as gospel, he doesn't seem to check his references.

The stoichiometric ratio is 4.3 : 1 against his 3 : 1. ( PMS is 222.3 g /mole, Chloramine is 51.5) so you'd need 13 mg/l of PMS to take out 3 mg/l of chloramine.

I don't know if it is a "flaw" (i.e. related to chlorophenols etc), but all I can say is that the chlorine-type taste (a kind of sharpness that tastes, well, a lot like my tap water)

Chlorophenols smell nothing like chlorine. They range from operating theatre to dank cellar through to wet carpet.

 

[MHB]

Hard to find a chance to work stoichiometric into a sentence...

And yes chlorophenols smell and taste a lot different to Chlorine or Chloramines for that matter.


I think US water suppliers use a lot more Chloramines than we do, in Australia I think a lot more Cl gas is used, Worth asking some serious questions of your utility before using too much Bisulphite.

Mark

 

[manticle]

My main experience of chlorephenols is good beer with dettol in it.

That and some of the islay single malts.

 

[rude]

Hard to find a chance to work stoichiometric into a sentence...

And yes chlorophenols smell and taste a lot different to Chlorine or Chloramines for that matter.

Capture.JPG

I think US water suppliers use a lot more Chloramines than we do, in Australia I think a lot more Cl gas is used, Worth asking some serious questions of your utility before using too much Bisulphite.

Mark

Hey Mark do you have the site reference to the beer faults off flavours list

You posted a while ago which I saved but comp has died & it is lost

It is a great reference

Cheers Rude

 

[Feldon]

Hard to find a chance to work stoichiometric into a sentence...

And yes chlorophenols smell and taste a lot different to Chlorine or Chloramines for that matter.

Capture.JPG

I think US water suppliers use a lot more Chloramines than we do, in Australia I think a lot more Cl gas is used, Worth asking some serious questions of your utility before using too much Bisulphite.

Mark

My understanding is water here is usually chlorinated by the addition of hypochlorite either in powder form or in a water solution (ie. bleach). Very few water authorities risk using raw chlorine gas because it is too hazardous to transport and handle, especially in populated areas.

 

[Lecterfan]

Ok just to clarify. I have spoken directly with the water management in Ballarat. The White Swan res is my water source, I have a run down of its components and it contains chloramine - not chlorine - at 3mg/l (treated at the outflow point) and estimated at around 2mg/l when it is at my tap.

As I said, I am not suspecting chlorophenols (I said I didn't know, and it is certainly not dettol or band aids or any of those things) and I have done numerous brews with different waters and water profiles and there is a persistent taste in my beers that is not an identifiable fault or flaw or making it undrinkable or especially unpleasant, but:
a. it is there,
b. I prefer my beer when it is NOT there,
c. b happens when I brew with rainwater or purchased water,
d. the taste is kind of a side and back palate thing and it tastes a hell of a lot like my drinking water.

I've been AG brewing for a good many years now and am at the point of refining rather than radically altering.

Anyway thanks for the bits and pieces, as is the only way to know, I will try it at the rate suggested and see what happens.

Edit: further to this there is a similar taste present in some other Ballarat based homebrewers beers, and when I used Billygoat's tankwater (which I did across 4 different batches etc etc) then my beers tasted a lot like his - not as well attenuated or generally as brilliant haha - but easily enough for me to notice a significant and obvious difference.

 

[MHB]

rude - Catch
View attachment Complete_Beer_Fault_Guide.pdf
I find I really useful thing to keep on my desktop.
Mark

 

[Benn]

There is also the "Beer Judge" app, it encompasses; Off flavours, flavour wheel, SRM spectrum etc.
I'd post a link but I daren't risk offending the i bashers.

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Ok just to clarify. I have spoken directly with the water management in Ballarat. The White Swan res is my water source, I have a run down of its components and it contains chloramine - not chlorine - at 3mg/l (treated at the outflow point) and estimated at around 2mg/l when it is at my tap.

In which case the Palmer recommendation of 9 mg/l PMS will be just fine.

 

[rude]

rude - Catch

Complete_Beer_Fault_Guide.pdf
I find I really useful thing to keep on my desktop.
Mark

Kept my eye on it and straight in the mits
Cheers mate it is a good guide

 

[Reman]

If you are worried about Metabisulphite then you can also use ascorbic acid to neutralise chlorine and chloramines

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/vitamin-c-for-chlorine-chloramine-removal.76953/

 

[Lyrebird_Cycles]

Never take anything in Palmer as gospel, he doesn't seem to check his references.

The stoichiometric ratio is 4.3 : 1 against his 3 : 1. ( PMS is 222.3 g /mole, Chloramine is 51.5) so you'd need 13 mg/l of PMS to take out 3 mg/l of chloramine.

I was wrong.

The stoichiometric ratio is 2.15: 1 because one mole of metabisulphite generates two moles of sulphite which neutralise two moles of chloramine, not one as the above implies.

My apologies for the error.

What was that about not checking references?