Cask and Hand-pump

[MartinOC]

Further to my earlier post, I just remembered that (in my extensive keg collection ) I also have three 18L kegs modified for real ale & they WILL fit in a fridge!!

Same principle applies. No beer engines, hand-pumps, shives & spiles required & no need to remove the dip-tube.

I've never needed to try it (since I have SOOOOO many kegs h34r: ), but I believe they could also be used as conventional kegs (since the ball-valve would be pressure-tolerant).

 

[MHB]

If you want a seriously good book on Cask Ale, the CAMRA book Cellarmanship is a very worthwhile read.
Covers most everything you would want to know - if a little (well to coin a phrase) CAMRAesk - I don't think these guys readily embrace modernity or change, but you get a really good idea of why Cask Ale was made the way it was, what the different serving techniques will do to the beer and all that.
Mark

 

[O'Henry]

There's also been a move in real ale management in recent times to accept replacing the head space in real ale casks with CO2 rather than air as it prolongs the life of the beer (it doesn't oxidise as quickly). You can buy a check valve- demand valve from cfbsonline.co.uk and connect it in-line to to your CO2 and corny keg so that you can pull real ale from the keg and the valve then maintains the pressure in the keg by replacing the head space with CO2 rather than air. This device doesn't carbonate your beer. This will keep your beer fresher for longer whilst you use the bee engine. I've found cfbs are really helpful and will take time on the phone to talk you through any questions you have. .

While some people have been using CO2 to replace the head space in casks, this is still regarded by CAMRA as unacceptable practise, as any extraneous CO2 is not allowed. I personally think using CO2 at minimal pressure to minimise beer deterioration is a great thing, and that CAMRA are an organisation stuck in the past. When the hand pump was invented I am sure it wasn't very liked. 'The loss of gravity serving is a crime against good ale!' But it allowed beers to be stored in the cellar were it was cooler and a more consistent temperature. Tradition is great, but so is accepting positive change.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

If the technology was around to inject CO2 to replace the head space when beer engine's was first used I would imagine it would be endorsed by CAMRA.
I for one have adapted my cubes so as to inject CO2, unless my brothers come around then I know the cask will be emptied.

I have used the polypin and it worked great except that I could smell rather than taste the plastic, anyone know anyway of getting rid of the plastic smell ?

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Sodium Bi carb is pretty good at sucking up smells, ask any house wife born before 1960's

 

[S.E]

There's also been a move in real ale management in recent times to accept replacing the head space in real ale casks with CO2 rather than air as it prolongs the life of the beer (it doesn't oxidise as quickly). You can buy a check valve- demand valve from cfbsonline.co.uk and connect it in-line to to your CO2 and corny keg so that you can pull real ale from the keg and the valve then maintains the pressure in the keg by replacing the head space with CO2 rather than air. This device doesn't carbonate your beer. This will keep your beer fresher for longer whilst you use the bee engine. I've found cfbs are really helpful and will take time on the phone to talk you through any questions you have. .

Race cask ventilators used rather than spiles also help preserve the beer I was told. If you recall Gideon I use Race ventilators on pins and also cubes at RAF but they are always emptied within a few hours.

At home after pouring the first pints under pressure of natural carbonation I just loosen the cap and re tighten it after I have poured the beer to limit the air.

 

[S.E]

If you want a seriously good book on Cask Ale, the CAMRA book Cellarmanship is a very worthwhile read.
Covers most everything you would want to know - if a little (well to coin a phrase) CAMRAesk - I don't think these guys readily embrace modernity or change, but you get a really good idea of why Cask Ale was made the way it was, what the different serving techniques will do to the beer and all that.
Mark

That a fantastic book and compulsory read for anyone interested in cask ale also great for anyone interested in brewing in general really. Cellarmanship is an art in itself

 

[mje1980]

Yeah no problem at the RAF's with oxidation hehe.

 

[Bribie G]

If I were ever to go into hand pumped beer I'd use a cube and just top up the headspace, after a session, with my "naked" CO2 line that I keep for flushing stuff. After settling down, most of the oxygen in the headspace should be separated from the beer by a layer of CO2.

 

[sp0rk]

If I were ever to go into hand pumped beer I'd use a cube and just top up the headspace, after a session, with my "naked" CO2 line that I keep for flushing stuff. After settling down, most of the oxygen in the headspace should be separated from the beer by a layer of CO2.

I take it you didn't up getting that awesome little brass pump from Whitworths you were talking about a while ago? (I think it was you talking about it...)

 

[dmac80]

It's not CAMRA kosher, but I've used a corny keg with a co2 regulator connected to the gas in post set at atmospheric pressure or a touch under when using my 'poor man's hand pump'.

When beer is pumped out of the keg it draws co2 back in through the reg (and non return). The only thing to be wary of is if the reg is set too high it will just push beer out the pump.

Cheers
Dan

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

 

[Bribie G]

I take it you didn't up getting that awesome little brass pump from Whitworths you were talking about a while ago? (I think it was you talking about it...)

I got a plastic version from BCF to try out the system with a collapsible water bag, couldn't get a gas tight seal and it was just sucking air. However I'll be trying again during the winter using a cube with CO2 flushing after every session.

 

[Bribie G]

It's not CAMRA kosher, but I've used a corny keg with a co2 regulator connected to the gas in post set at atmospheric pressure or a touch under when using my 'poor man's hand pump'.

When beer is pumped out of the keg it draws co2 back in through the reg (and non return). The only thing to be wary of is if the reg is set too high it will just push beer out the pump.

Cheers
Dan

Sent from my GT-N7105 using Tapatalk

I've seen exactly the same thing happen in a pub in Dover, Kent, serving Shepherd Neame on handpump. I was in a side bar and could see what was going on at the handpump. They obviously had a cask "breather" thing happening because after pulling the pint, a thin trickle of beer was still coming out, and the barman flicked a little brass lever to stop it.

 

[sp0rk]

I got a plastic version from BCF to try out the system with a collapsible water bag, couldn't get a gas tight seal and it was just sucking air. However I'll be trying again during the winter using a cube with CO2 flushing after every session.

Let me know how you go, a friend was supposed to be bringing back a couple of beer engines and some poly pins back from from the UK with her but it seems like she's flaked out on the deal
I'm thinking about doing a couple of milds/bitters/my choc porter soon to have aged and ready to serve from a collapsible water bag and a DIY engine as soon as the weather cools down
I'm experimenting at the moment with trying to find a similar sized lid for the bag that I can fit a threaded fitting to with a ball valve attached instead of just sliding a hose in/over the existing tap and risking leakage

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Came across this, http://www.abgbrew.com/Cask%20conditioning...pdf

 

[S.E]

I’ve never been a member of CAMRA but think they are a great organisation who undoubtedly helped reverse the trend towards keg beer and rekindled the interest in cask ale or “real ale” as they call it.

I also think using CO2 at minimal pressure to minimise beer deterioration is a good thing and especially usefully in pubs with a low turnover as they could have more variety on tap.

I was told a story by my Uncle that a group of about 4 guys were drinking in the Farriers Arms in St Albans, Herts ,UK and were having a good old whinge (as you do) about the fact the beer they were drinking had been filtered, force carbonated just didn’t taste as “real” as it used to.

A few tastings later they wobbled home after resolving to form an organisation to combat the growing trend of kegging and destroying good beer.
I’m not sure if the story is true or where my uncle had heard it but we were drinking in the Farriers Arms when he told me it. I’d love to know if it is true.

After a few more tastings of the now fantastic cask ale at the Farriers arms myself and my uncle wobbled home resolving to learn to brew our own all grain “real ale”
.
The following week end we went to the local HB shop and bought the ingredients and equipment to brew. I bought a plastic thermostatically controlled electrim bin kettle/mash tun, a grain bag (or BIAB bag) also a separate hop bag for the hop flowers.

I also bought a pressure barrel to serve from, it was similar to the cubes I use now in many ways. I had intended to use it here in Australia but found they were not used here and I could not get the new seal and tap it needed.

I brewed in a few all grain brews in the UK, but St Albans is a town full of pubs serving excellent cask ale so I didn’t get to brew that much. I went in to town after work most nights and weekends with my mates visiting some of the best cask ale pubs I have found in the country. A lot of the pubs also held Real ale festivals that were attended by CAMRA members but we didn’t really talk or mix with them as we were in our teens and early twenties and they were middle aged.

Returning home after the pub I would often walk past a house on the corner of Oswald Road and Alma Road. It had a hand written sign in the window that said something like CAMRA HQ, The Campaign for Real Ale. They later moved to their present office on Hatfield Road.



From left. Pin with Race cask ventilator, Cube and Plastic UK home brew barrel

Cheers
Sean

 

[Jason_brews_beer]

Wow!! I did open up a can of worms methinks... :blink: haha

Totally understand the logistics and the why of the beer engine. And why they aren't really needed if you can gravity feed the tap. But... I don't want a syringe hanging around my bar to add head to the beer when the engine will do that and look good to. I guess I'm a bit nostalgic and having spent a good chunk of the last two years in the ol' boozer in Leeds and London I've want to serve my ale the same way cause I like it and think it adds a certain mouthfeel a syringe won't impart. Simple.

Will defo explore using cubes as a cask Sean, sounds like a good idea. And much more practical to keeping it in the fridge when not having a session. And I'm not too worried about them expanding. they will never explode with extreme amounts of force anyway and i can vent if really required. I like to tinker so would always keep and eye on them. The cask I want is purely for parties and festivals, weddings and anything a f*#k-ton of people will drink at.

CO2 to replace the headspace is something i was already thinking about so good to have that idea confirmed too. And although I want to keep to 'real ale/CAMRA' standards as much as possible things like replacing the headspace with co2 just make sense and i don't see why it shouldn't be used.

:super:

 

[Jason_brews_beer]

Not exactly sure myself mate. The fine holes in a sparkler force the co2 out off suspension to create the creamy head but the malts and adjuncts used also have an effect.

For instance an Irish stout with a high proportion of rolled barley will form a thicker creamier head through a sparkler than say a single malt pale ale.

I would like to know the exact reason myself.

Using a syringe to suck up and squirt beer back in to the glass a few times will have a similar effect but obviously not as much fun as using an engine and sparkler.

I think it also has something to do with the pressure a hand-pump can force a beer up the line and into the glass. They foam up quite a bit when pulling the pump and I usually left mine about 30-60sec after pouring so the ultra fine bubbles in the beer can lift to the surface and clear the beer.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Have you ever noticed though how the bubbles sink, I don't know if it is the turbulence that causes them to go down the side of the glass instead of up.
Here are some photos of the cubes in the cool room with a knocked up vent / CO2 injector the $50 beer engine with Bunnings sparkler and how to dispense non carbonated beer.
I also do what Bribie was suggesting when transferring to secondary then to cask (cube) I put a blanket of CO2 in the vessel while transferring the beer.
A beautiful ruby mild.
Cheers

 

[mxd]

Have you ever noticed though how the bubbles sink, I don't know if it is the turbulence that causes them to go down the side of the glass instead of up.
Here are some photos of the cubes in the cool room with a knocked up vent / CO2 injector the $50 beer engine with Bunnings sparkler and how to dispense non carbonated beer.
I also do what Bribie was suggesting when transferring to secondary then to cask (cube) I put a blanket of CO2 in the vessel while transferring the beer.
A beautiful ruby mild.
Cheers

looks very nice, I keep looking for an beer engine (cheap ).

hey next time your going to pour a pint if you would like to train me on usage etc.. I would love to try it