Cask and Hand-pump

[S.E]

I'm sure they would, given that that's standard routine for large breweries* and they're all about not doing what large breweries do.


* It's not cost effective much below 100Ml PA.

They are not all about not doing what large breweries do. Some large breweries do exactly what they want, produce and serve traditional real ale.

Some like Wadworth of Devizes take it a step further and deliver some of their beer locally in wood casks with shire horses.

What we are doing is not the same as the large breweries. We are not using the CO2 we store in collapsible water containers to force carbonate beer or dispense it under pressure.

We are collecting CO2 from the primary fermenter and using it untreated and uncompressed to replace the same beer as it is dispensed from the cask (or ridged no chill cubes we use as casks).

CAMRA define real ale here http://www.camra.org.uk/about-real-ale.

“Real ale is a beer brewed from traditional ingredients (malted barley, hops water and yeast), matured by secondary fermentation in the container from which it is dispensed, and served without the use of extraneous carbon dioxide.”

“Some beer served from keg, often called "craft keg", is produced using different levels of filtration and/or pastuerisation (in some case using neither), which results in a keg beer which still has live yeast present. If it still uses additional gas during dispense then it does not qualify - under CAMRA policy - as real ale. CAMRA recognises beers which contain live yeast which are served without gas coming into contact with the beer (such as in KeyKegs/KeyCasks) as real ale.”

We can dispense the first few pints of beer from the cube under CO2 pressure when it is swollen from secondary fermentation and it is still real ale. After that we need to use our bag of CO2 or loosen the cap and let in air to either gravity dispense or hand pump.

If they consider the CO2 we collect and store from primary as extraneous CO2 then I guess it does not qualify as real ale but then a cask that is traditionally vented and gravity dispensed cannot qualify as real ale either as it is letting extraneous CO2 from the air come in to contact with the beer and using it to dispense.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

My collapsible water container is now full of CO2 my Abbots Ale should be conditioned so I will reduce the temp of the cask to 10 degrees and tomorrow draw my first pint using the captured gas, I will have to keep a record of how long the gas lasts against pints drawn. Hope its not as hard as recalling how many drinks I've had.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Abbots Ale clone 10 degrees C, nectar, how I have missed my cask ale.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Do you mean a cube on low carb? I think that’s what Bribie G said he used for cask ale. An un modified keg on low carb wouldn’t work as the co2 pressure would need to be high enough to push the beer op the dip tube to serve so that would be keg ale not cask.

A keg could be fitted with a tap at the bottom and used for cask ale or a beer engine used to draw the beer up through the dip tube.

With the combined cube and collapsible bag you don’t need to tie up kegs, co2 bottle and regulator. In fact you don’t need a co2 system.

All as I do is fill up the bag with co2 from the fermenter by plugging the bag into the airlock hole when the wort is vigorously fermenting then use the free co2 to top up the cube automatically as the beer is drawn from the cube.

For less than $30 you can put together a draft real ale system. All you need is a cube,bag short length of 10mm tube air lock and grommet.

Drill a hole in the cube cap and fit the grommet. Cut the bottom bit of tube off the airlock (about 3cm) and push it half way in to one end of the tube, the other half pushes in to the grommet. Then push the other end of the tube over the tap on the bag.

I have a few spare cube taps so drilled one of those for the grommet and use un drilled caps while the cubes are conditioning but if you have no spare caps the hole could be blocked with a hard spile or something similar.

Do you mean a cube on low carb? I think that’s what Bribie G said he used for cask ale. An un modified keg on low carb wouldn’t work as the co2 pressure would need to be high enough to push the beer op the dip tube to serve so that would be keg ale not cask.

A keg could be fitted with a tap at the bottom and used for cask ale or a beer engine used to draw the beer up through the dip tube.

With the combined cube and collapsible bag you don’t need to tie up kegs, co2 bottle and regulator. In fact you don’t need a co2 system.

All as I do is fill up the bag with co2 from the fermenter by plugging the bag into the airlock hole when the wort is vigorously fermenting then use the free co2 to top up the cube automatically as the beer is drawn from the cube.

For less than $30 you can put together a draft real ale system. All you need is a cube,bag short length of 10mm tube air lock and grommet.

Drill a hole in the cube cap and fit the grommet. Cut the bottom bit of tube off the airlock (about 3cm) and push it half way in to one end of the tube, the other half pushes in to the grommet. Then push the other end of the tube over the tap on the bag.

I have a few spare cube taps so drilled one of those for the grommet and use un drilled caps while the cubes are conditioning but if you have no spare caps the hole could be blocked with a hard spile or something similar.

So wouldn't you be able to attach a hand pump to a keg that has a very low carbonation level beer in it that's attached to a co2 bottle set to a very low pressure? I realise it would be regarded as keg beer but wouldn't the beer produced at the tap be very similar to this system of collecting co2 in collapsable cube connected to a rigid cube and then hand pulled?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

So wouldn't you be able to attach a hand pump to a keg that has a very low carbonation level beer in it that's attached to a co2 bottle set to a very low pressure? I realise it would be regarded as keg beer but wouldn't the beer produced at the tap be very similar to this system of collecting co2 in collapsable cube connected to a rigid cube and then hand pulled?

I think CAMRA are a bit to rigid in their rules though I am pretty sure they have changed it. Koshari put a post up recently, cant remember which thread it was in, but you only need little or no carbonation in the cask I have put a teaspoon of sugar into 20 litres and keep the co2 from the ferment in the collapsible cube. Just do whatever suits as long as it comes out the way you like it.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Just as an aside, in order to fit a sprinkler do you have to have a hand pump system or does anyone know of a way of fitting them to standard taps?

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Just as an aside, in order to fit a sprinkler do you have to have a hand pump system or does anyone know of a way of fitting them to standard taps?

Somewhere in this thread is a post where I fitted a tap aerator which I got from Bunnings to this pump,
https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000BGM2XG/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
The beer pours identical to a beer engine, a cheap way to go to enjoy a cask ale.

 

[koshari]

Fitting a sparkler to a standard tap wont work very well as you need more pressure. This is what smoothflow is all about. Eg. John smith. Guinness.smithwicks.

The hand pump increases the pressure at the sparkler to force the beer throught the small holes.

Then you need to use cellermix gas so the hgher pressure doesnt overcarbomate the beer.

Edit; just to be clear you dont need cellermix and high pressure using a pump because the pump temporarily pressures the beer as you pump. Smoothflow is a way of getting a similar creamy finish like a hand pump with a draft setup..

 

[S.E]

So wouldn't you be able to attach a hand pump to a keg that has a very low carbonation level beer in it that's attached to a co2 bottle set to a very low pressure? I realise it would be regarded as keg beer but wouldn't the beer produced at the tap be very similar to this system of collecting co2 in collapsable cube connected to a rigid cube and then hand pulled?

Yes you could do that. There is no reason a keg cant be used as a cask.

Only thing is cask conditioned ale has a fair bit of yeast settle at the bottom which will be drawen up the dip tube of a keg.With a cube the yeast settles below the tap.

You could use a floating dip on a keg to serve real ale and that would be fine even with CAMRA so long as you dont top it up with co2.

 

[koshari]

Yes you could do that. There is no reason a keg cant be used as a cask.

Only thing is cask conditioned ale has a fair bit of yeast settle at the bottom which will be drawen up the dip tube of a keg.With a cube the yeast settles below the tap.

You could use a floating dip on a keg to serve real ale and that would be fine even with CAMRA so long as you dont top it up with co2.

Camra accepts co2 breathers now.

And the floating dip or widget is a good suggestion. Personally i would just use a cube if i were to go that route.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Fitting a sparkler to a standard tap wont work very well as you need more pressure. This is what smoothflow is all about. Eg. John smith. Guinness.smithwicks.

The hand pump increases the pressure at the sparkler to force the beer throught the small holes.

Then you need to use cellermix gas so the hgher pressure doesnt overcarbomate the beer.

Edit; just to be clear you dont need cellermix and high pressure using a pump because the pump temporarily pressures the beer as you pump. Smoothflow is a way of getting a similar creamy finish like a hand pump with a draft setup..

In order to increase the flow through the sparkler couldn't you just keep the keg pressure and carbonation low and shorten the beer line(I'm jet lagged so could be talking complete shite!)

 

[koshari]

No it doesnt work that way because as soon as you have flow the static pressure drops and the line pressure drop across the hose would pail into insignificence compared to the restrictor.

There is a poor mans way to do it but it wastes a bit of gas. You simply crank the reg up to 30psi. Pour the beer through a restrictor tap then screw it back down to 8psi and vent the keg.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

No it doesnt work that way because as soon as you have flow the static pressure drops and the line pressure drop across the hose would pail into insignificence compared to the restrictor.

There is a poor mans way to do it but it wastes a bit of gas. You simply crank the reg up to 30psi. Pour the beer through a restrictor tap then screw it back down to 8psi and vent the keg.

Not sure what you mean, doesn't the co2 bottle top up the keg when the pressure drops in there and wouldn't the pressure at the tap increase if the beer line is shortened? Or am I missing something?

 

[koshari]

Simply put there is relatively little restriction in the line compared to across the restrictor/sparkler that variations in the line length are relatively low in comparison.

The c02 reg will govern flow to maintain the set pressure. The pressure in the line regardless of length (to a degree ) will stay relatively similar to the regulator outlet pressure all the way to the restrictor. There will be a huge pressure drop across the restrictor/sparkler whilst there is flow.

It is in fact the change of pressure across this restrictor that changes the amount of soluble c02 in the fluid.

If you didn't have a restrictor/sparkler in the system the majority of the pressure drop would then be in the line. This is why on systems without a restrictor the hose size/length combination becomes more of an issue.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[S.E]

Camra accepts co2 breathers now.

Really, since when? I cant find enything about that. Still says on their site must be dispensed without any gas or gas mix. http://www.camra.org.uk/about-real-ale

 

[koshari]

Came out in their last quarterly newsletter from the last annual conference.

Below is a copy of the motion and a link to the article.

CAMRA now neutral on "cask breathers"

Members decided to change CAMRA's policy on "cask breathers" - devices used in pub cellars to lengthen the life of cask beers by ensuring a blanket of carbon dioxide preserves the beer. Previously against such devices, the motion called on the Campaign to end its opposition to cask breathers.

National Director Nick Boley explained that all cask breathers do is stop air from getting into the cask and keeps the condition of the beer closer to a freshly tapped cask.

He added: "I've tried to work out the chemistry of why cask breathers were wrong: I couldn't and I'm still scratching my head. Cask breathers are a boon for small rural pubs and cafe bars. If we want to get cask beer into these outlets this is one way of doing it.

"The ban on cask breather policy has had its day and there is no reason to continue to exclude pubs using cask breathers from our guide.

John O'Donnell, from Trafford and Hulme branch said; "We've heard a popular myth that beer needs oxygen for secondary fermentation, it doesn't. Oxygen is beer's enemy. This perpetuates another myth that pubs that use cask breathers aren't good pubs. [Our current policy] results in members going into pubs and tell them they're not eligible for awards. It's a bad thing.

National Director Ben Wilkinson said: "This motion is about giving more freedom to CAMRA's branches. There are lots of pubs across the UK which cannot be placed in the Good Beer Guide (GBG) because of our policy. This will allow pubs to be included in the GBG based on the quality of the beer and the pub. There is a lot of confusion about cask breathers which is simply not true. They improve the quality of beer and that is all that they do. Let's trust branches and our local members to assess the quality of beers on their merit."


http://www.camra.org.uk/news/-/asse...uture-as-its-members-call-for-positive-change

 

[S.E]

Wow I didnt think that would happen. Got to be a good thing, pubs can now put on a wider range of ales that dont need to be consumed in a few days and stay in the CAMRA good beer guide.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Simply put there is relatively little restriction in the line compared to across the restrictor/sparkler that variations in the line length are relatively low in comparison.

The c02 reg will govern flow to maintain the set pressure. The pressure in the line regardless of length (to a degree ) will stay relatively similar to the regulator outlet pressure all the way to the restrictor. There will be a huge pressure drop across the restrictor/sparkler whilst there is flow.

It is in fact the change of pressure across this restrictor that changes the amount of soluble c02 in the fluid.

If you didn't have a restrictor/sparkler in the system the majority of the pressure drop would then be in the line. This is why on systems without a restrictor the hose size/length combination becomes more of an issue.

Hope this makes sense.

Ah ok got it now, good explanation mate thanks for that. So to digress a tad, what I'm after is a method of getting close to being able to produce a pint of EB with the hand pulled characteristics i. e creamy head, low carbonation from a co2/corny keg system. You mentioned cranking up the Psi when pouring and then venting the keg to prevent over carbonating the beer. Would I still need to have something like Intertap fitted with the beer nozzle? And are there any other options of reproducing hand pulled beer besides the pump engine or cellarmix set up?

 

[koshari]

You still need a tap with a restrictor for previous method not flow control. They are often called stout faucets.Some taps have provision for a restrictor, possibly intertap is one.

Another cheap and cheerfully way is to make a Bronx pump from either a water sprayer or a caravan water pump. There are posts of both methods on site. The spray bottle setup works well and is under 10 bucks of bits.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Saw a Youtube clip hand pulling from a keg whilst the vent is open and then they suggest that when you finished your session (if you're not blown out of your tree that is) regass at very low pressure and vent off the oxygen. Has anyone tried this and how does the beer go after being exposed to oxygen for maybe a couple of hours at a time?