Carbonation Problems!

[marky_mark]

Hey Guys,

Been brewing a few batches lately, all extract lagers and have obviously taken to racking and cold conditioning for some period. Recently though, i'm struggling to get any carbonation into my bottles... each and everyone is flat. This problem only started after I began doing diacetyl rests. I'm bulk priming with 3/4 cup corn sugar and havent had any problems in the past with this amount. I'm using dry yeast for the problem batches... Saflager S23 and W34/70 to be precise...

This problem also really started after i began doing a diacetly rest on the batches after initial fermentation had subsided. Is it possible that by doing a diacetly rest and ending initial fermentation completely, that i'm removing some fermentation that had in the past contributed to carbonation of the beer? What amount of corn sugar do most people use for the carbonation of a lager/pilsner?

If I dont solve this problem soon I may be forced to move to a keg set up and do away with natural carbonation altogether...

Any thoughts....
Thanks Guys,

Mark

 

[Weizguy]

m_m,

Kegging's definitely not the end of the world, at least.

Have you been fining the yeast out of the beer.
Or have you been buying dried corn syrup (maltodextrin) rather than Dextrose?
Have you been giving the beers a diacetyl rest at 40+C?

All of these may have caused lack of carbonation.

What temperature is the beer at during carbonation? Cooked yeast won't eat sugar.
How long has it been since bottling/priming?

Seth problem hunter

 

[marky_mark]

Haven't been using finings after fermentation... as far as i'm aware its dextrose that i'm using... diacetyl rest happened around 18-22 degrees... During carbonation the beers are at room temp in my garage...its been about 6 weeks since bottling for the main problem batch, 2-3 weeks for the others...

 

[Stuster]

Has anything changed about your bottling technique? Obvious really, but you are not using new bottle tops are you? Buying dextrose from a different place? Just grasping at straws really.

Wish I could move to kegs, but space dictates otherwise.

Cheers
Stuart

 

[ozbrewer]

A diacetyl rest wont cause yor beer to not carbonate, carbonation comes from Pressure and CO2

IF the beer is in bottles taste a flat bottle, is it to sweet? , like does it taste like there is a tsp of sugar in it....if so you do not have enough yeast to convert the sugar to co2 and alcohol......

Does your bottle have a layer of sediment in it, if so it likley that the co2 has been produced, but the gas has leaked( incorrect bottling)

both the strains you mentioned are good fighters and even higher than norm,al temps wont hurt them to much.....

Is there a ring of slime around the top of the bottle where the top of the fluid line is.....maybe there is somthing infectiong the beer killing the yeast....



The bottom line is, you either have not got enough viable yeast in the bottle, or you have not added enough sugar i have had beer sit in lagering fridges for months and still carbonated

 

[ozbrewer]

another thing....the 3/4 cup is not a good measurment for bottling.....i take it you got it of one of the seppo website?...yes?...

i would go and weigh up a 3/4 cup of sugar and see how much it weighs....the 3/4 cup is a rough estimate that the seppos use for priming kegs...not bottles, you need less sugar to prime 1 keg, then you do for 30 bottles, for 23 ltrs you want to be aiming for 180-200gm

 

[ruserious]

Is there a ring of slime around the top of the bottle where the top of the fluid line is.....maybe there is somthing infectiong the beer killing the yeast....

[post="102442"][/post]​

Ozbrewer,
for the first time in over 1000 bottles i have this in my latest brew, i havn't tasted one yet as it's only been in the bottle a week.

what is it and will it totally screw my brew ?

cheers
ruserious

apologies for off topic.

 

[ozbrewer]

open it up and taste it, but its a good common sign of infection

 

[marky_mark]

180-200g of priming sugar... is that for dextrose/corn sugar... if so i thought 130-150g was a more appropriate figure... can anyone help me out here?

cheers.

 

[Stuster]

Marky mark

have a look at the Bulk Priming thread here especially the priming calculator at the top of page 2 of that thread. I find 180g too much carbonation for most styles, though good for some styles like wheat beers. Have a play with the calculator and see what it suggests for your beer.

 

[pint of lager]

If you have been cold conditioning before bottling, there is less yeast in the bottle to provide secondary fermentation and carbonation. Wait a bit longer, let the bottles carb up for double your normal time.

What temperature are you leaving the bottles for priming? It should be at the same temperature as your fermentation temperature.

Make sure you understand the difference between dextrose, corn sugar, maltodextrin and corn syrup. They are often used interchangably, and depending on your country, they can be completely different products. Confusion reigns.

In Australia, you must use dextrose for priming, which is manufactured from starch, usually wheat starch.

Corn syrup and corn sugar mean maltodextrin in Australia. This product is used in kit and kilo brewing because it doesn't ferment out and will give the brew residual mouthfeel.

In America, they often use corn and maize as their source of starch, and call products produced from it, corn sugar. This gives rise to huge confusion to Australian brewers.

If you are priming, you want dextrose. If you are fermenting a kits and bits, you may want to use a small proportion of maltodextrin (or corn syrup) to give some residual body in the primary fermenter.

If you add corn syrup or maltodextrin for priming, your beer may have some carbonation, but will be much lower than expected.

 

[Prof. Pils]

Yep. Its easy to use malto dextrin instead of dextrose esp when yr trying to brew & bottle @ the same time.U dont realise until U try one and its too sweet with no bubbles.Cheers Glenn.

 

[marky_mark]

Oh that makes me angry...the guys at Liquor Craft in Melbourne were passing corn sugar off as the same as dextrose...i had no idea there was such a huge difference... this explains the weak carbonation and residual sweetness i've had in the last few batches...it was really starting to get to me!!... i thought it was just cause i was doing extract brews... almost had me going to AG...maybe that can wait a little while now

So when do we use corn sugar as an ingredient in the brew?

 

[ozbrewer]

So when do we use corn sugar as an ingredient in the brew?

[post="102723"][/post]​

when you want ya beer to taste like crap




best thing to do is buy carbonation drops and use them, get all your process sorted out then worry about bulk priming




looks like another brewwer to get burnt by under educated HBS owners

IF your in Vic loo for the decent HBS like Grain & Grape, or Greenborough HB

 

[Kai]

Corn syrup and corn sugar are two names that often seem to cause brewers some confusion. I've always thought it best to refer to them using their proper names only. That being, maltodextrin for corn syrup and dextrose or glucose for corn sugar. After all, it's a misnomer to call australian maltodextrin corn syrup when it's usually made from wheat.

 

[dickTed]

I've been using 500g of Wheat extract + 2.5kg LME. This has been perfect in my ales, but for ease I've just started using 200g Crystal wheat instead - when I've got it, that'll be.

I used to use "Big head" which improves it only slightly if at all. Most of it just sinks to the bottom.

Using malts only instead of these powdered sugars will help.

Anyway that's all to do with head retention. Carbonation is a different thing.

About priming, 180g works OK. Doesn't matter if it's sugar or dextrose or whatever.

Good luck. They get better anyway