Carbonating Kegs For Temprite

[nardcooker]

Quick question about carbonating kegs for use in Temprite.

I have been kegging for a while now with no issues. My mate has just got a temprite and I am making him up some brews.
I plan to carbonate the keg for the temprite the same way I do for my fridge. ie. bang it in the fridge and give it some gas for a while.
My question is, will my mate run into carbonation issues when I give him a properly carbonated cold keg which will be hooked to his temprite at room temp? Any adjustments needed to the carbonation as the temperature of the keg increases ?

I don't really see it being a major issue, but infomation from more experienced keggers is always appreciated



Old Mates Temprite

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Quick question about carbonating kegs for use in Temprite.

I have been kegging for a while now with no issues. My mate has just got a temprite and I am making him up some brews.
I plan to carbonate the keg for the temprite the same way I do for my fridge. ie. bang it in the fridge and give it some gas for a while.
My question is, will my mate run into carbonation issues when I give him a properly carbonated cold keg which will be hooked to his temprite at room temp? Any adjustments needed to the carbonation as the temperature of the keg increases ?

I don't really see it being a major issue, but infomation from more experienced keggers is always appreciated



Old Mates Temprite

I usually dispense at the same carbonation pressure, you can come unstuck if your gauges dont read the same pressure correctly.I assume he will be chilling the temprite with ice.Another thing if the temprite has been flushed with water do put the ice in till you have flushed the unit with beer or you could end up with a frozen temprite no beer and un happy punters.
GB

 

[nardcooker]

Hi GB
I probably should have been a little clearer.... the temprite has a glycol unit in it, we plugged it in for the first time the other weekend and ran some water through it for a little while to ensure that it was working ...... it was...... and we were very happy.

Good point about the water in the lines though, it would be a balls up to freeze the water left in it just as it comes up to drinking time.

Old mate is going to use carbonation bulbs to start with. I did mention to him that although cheaper to get started with, bulbs start to get expensive, not only that you have less control went you don't have a reg, it will be a little hit and miss. I have recommeded a soda-stream setup with single reg for when get gets more cash.

 

[KGB]

My mate just scored a free temprite and I was pondering this very question the other day as well. Seems a pain to chill down a keg to carbonate it and then just leave it to get warm while drinking it from the temprite - may as well just drink the keg straight from the fridge IMO.
May naturally carbonate the keg? You'd lose a schooner or two as the sediment was pumped out the bottom but at least then you don't have to bother force carb'ing it. As for dispensing I'd probably go with sodastream or sparklets as well.

 

[edoeven]

I tried out my esky-box thingo on the weekend for the first time and ran into similar problems.

Had carbed the beers up in my fridge, checked the carb levels, was happy etc. Took them out of the fridge and left them in the shed for a few days (still cool, ~12-13 C vs 3-4 in the fridge!), took them to a mates place and even at 20psi a lot of gas was coming out in the lines resulting in a foamy and flat pour

at the time I didnt really work it out - but it is obvious in hindsight!!

 

[Mclovin]

IMHO, temprites are really only good for chilling beer from cellar temp to cold, not from aussie summer heat to cold. As the temperature fluctuates, you need to adjust the damn pressure, as well. Makes it a ******* to balance.

This is correct. All the beer systems, Temprites i have worked on have a keg room at 4-6 'C. The Temprite will only be doing the extra 3 'C from the keg and out the tap. All the systems I have worked on are conventional refrigeration setup with surge drum and 750 valves etc, etc.

 

[nardcooker]

thanks guys for the advice and information

I'm not to worried about the temperature out of the tap just now (the kegs in my fridge are sweet) more interested in the carbonation changes from cold to hot and pouring / purging / regassing during these changes and as the ambient temp fluctuates. Glad I'm not paying for the bulbs. Old mate says that he will only be running it now and again, but we all know how these things turn out especially with a new born in the house.

We got ice cold water from tap water on the initial run the other weekend, not really a comparison to a veranda in the QLD summer though.

Will be hooking it soon, I have both of my carboys on the go and both my clearing cubes full waiting to go into kegs on rotation. I am slowly working my way up to "maximum capacity" after some time on the bench. Then maybe I can help old mate out with a keg for the Temprite.

I'll take couple of temp readings and post results.

 

[muckey]

and butters ought to know, he's been over for some pretty long temprite test sessions h34r:

 

[arty]

I've got a simular problem first time brewing and using kegs, i carb the keg for 48hrs on 260kpa but not in a fridge,left it for 2-3 weeks. Come the the big day to test the brew and it came out clear and little bit of head and very little bubble's taste a bit flat? So did i not carb it long enough ? As you do i played with the reg and got more head.
Any help would be great.

 

[nardcooker]

3draws,

I find that time under "pouring pressure" in the fridge is best. I put mine on 250kpa (32 psi) for approx 40 hours under normal fridge temp (4C). Then purge and set to 70kpa (10psi) and leave it. For a while they are a little flat, but IMHO it's best to wait rather than force carbonate too much.

One way round it is to start putting more brews down so you can have one carbonating at pouring pressure with another 1 or 2 on tap !!!

 

[arty]

3draws,

I find that time under "pouring pressure" in the fridge is best. I put mine on 250kpa (32 psi) for approx 40 hours under normal fridge temp (4C). Then purge and set to 70kpa (10psi) and leave it. For a while they are a little flat, but IMHO it's best to wait rather than force carbonate too much.

One way round it is to start putting more brews down so you can have one carbonating at pouring pressure with another 1 or 2 on tap !!!

How long would you leave to carb for, if i dont use the fridge? So naturaly is better instead of force carbonating? How do you do naturaly carb and how long do you have to leave for? I'm guessing that you couldn't carb in fridge, and then leave it out under the bar for the glycol temprite,it will get to warm going from 4c to 12c? i've got two brews waiting for to be made up (beez kneez & chocolate redwood ale) from brewcraft

 

[nardcooker]

How long would you leave to carb for, if i dont use the fridge?
My understanding is that as the temperature of the beer drops the more C02 it can absorb. As the keg gets hot some of the C02 will come out of solution. Bulk priming may be a better way to go if you can't chill while forcing the carbonation.

So naturaly is better instead of force carbonating?
I find the beer tastes, pours, retains head and bubbles alot better when carbonated over a longer period. I still give it a kick start for around 40 hours, but find that the second half of the keg is always better carbonated, (and tastes better) that the first half, after it has been sitting at pouring pressure for a couple of days.

How do you do naturaly carb and how long do you have to leave for?
natural carbonation means to me hooking up the keg to pouring pressure and waiting, I am unsure of time (2 weeks?)
or
it's another name for bulk priming, add more fermentables (eg. dextrose) when kegging and let it sit in the keg. Same as bottling just on a larger scale.

I'm guessing that you couldn't carb in fridge, and then leave it out under the bar for the glycol temprite,it will get to warm going from 4c to 12c?
I will be moving carbonated kegs from the fridge to old mates veranda for temprite use soon. I expect it to be hit and miss because of the flucuation of the temperature coming into summer. I am confident it will be fine when the keg is fresh from the fridge, but the CO2 coming out of solution as the keg gets hotter will be an pain in the sphincter.

I am sure that there's someone on the forums who has done the carbonation with hot kegs. I think that bulk priming may be the way to go if you have the time to let sit it do the business but it takes more time. If you have the C02 sitting there I would be fermenting and giving it a crack. Because of the variables in temperature, pressure and efficiency of the glyol setup it will be hard to get specific advice.
IMHO the bottom line is hot kegs will take alot longer to get properly carbonated than cold ones.
It will probably be a case of having to take in as much info as you can and go for it. I am interested in the results.

 

[Tim]

You can't effectively prime a keg with sugar as it needs initial pressure to seal it properly. You can do it, however you theroretically may pick up an infection.

I assume that you can carbonate at higer pressure when at a higher temperature. I did a bit of research on US sites and I think at 25 degrees the optimum pressure is 29psi. If you balance your system with enough beer line/ stainless coil you can carbonate and serve at this temp.

I am interested in what others are doing as I am thinking of a temprite/miracle box type solution in my bar (when I move home). I am planning on having the coils in the freezer at -1 degree (ie so the beer doesnt freeze) with the kegs out side. By doing it this way I can use a smaller bar fridge which I have already.

 

[buttersd70]

You can't effectively prime a keg with sugar as it needs initial pressure to seal it properly. You can do it, however you theroretically may pick up an infection.

You certainly can prime a keg with sugar. Due to the fact that you need to flush the headspace anyway, you just leave enough residual pressure in there to form the seal.

 

[Tim]

But if you are going to pressurise the vessel with CO2 anyway why bother naturally carbonating?

 

[buttersd70]

But if you are going to pressurise the vessel with CO2 anyway why bother naturally carbonating?

The amount of co2 used to flush the headspace and give pressure on the seal (and only a slight pressure is required for sealing) is very minimal when compared to the amount of gas used to carbonate the whole keg, which not only needs to be pressurised, it has to have the pressure maintaned as the co2 is absorbed into the beer.

 

[Tim]

The amount of co2 used to flush the headspace and give pressure on the seal (and only a slight pressure is required for sealing) is very minimal when compared to the amount of gas used to carbonate the whole keg, which not only needs to be pressurised, it has to have the pressure maintaned as the co2 is absorbed into the beer.

Its hardly cost effective. The cost of a cup of sugar is roughly the same price as the 40L of CO2 that you would use to carbonate (unless you are sodastreaming or bulbing). I only raised the point as I was under the impression that people were going to treat a keg like a giant bottle. That is, you dont need to purge the keg as the carbonating fermentation would consume the oxygen in the headspace anyway, in which case there would be no need to purge the headspace (except to maintain positive pressure so it seals).

 

[buttersd70]

You don't need anywhere near a cup to carbonate a keg....60g for 2.5vol @ 0.86Vol residual. You only need 1/2 what a bottle does.
Don't get me wrong, nothing wrong with force carbing....I force carb and prime, with time being the deciding factor.

 

[muckey]

I've been force carbing kegs for a while due to low stocks but do wish to get back to naturally priming in future as I prefer to have the keg sit and naturally carbonate over time, not try and rush it from the fermenter to the tap. Either carbonating method is completely valid and will depend on the setup and frequency of brewing to keep a regular supply on tap.

The biggest issue with the temprite, as stated earlier in the thread is pressure. I do have mine outside due to lack of fridge space ( am in the planning stages of a change here) and the beer temp out of the tap in summer is almost perfect ( the setup gets a little sun first thing but spends most of the day on the shade) and the required pressure does need to be higher during summer and lower during winter. I also normally run the tmprite on a timer so it runs for a few hours every day but is off overnight. If you dont maintain the temperature, the temprite needs to be turned on a few hours before the first beer or you'll have pouring issues. Best thing is to do what the pubs do, keep your kegs cool and at a constant temperature. Temprites are a really cool thing to have ( I have mine because of the price) but the fridge mod is a much easier system to work with.

 

[robbo5253]

I currently have just brewed a 50l keg and have put it in the fridge under my normal pouring pressure of around 95kpa.

I will leave it there for around 2 weeks to gas up, and will then remove from the fridge and store in a back bedroom until new years.

My question is do I need to put it back in the fridge for a week under gas before being able to use it?

It will be used on a miracle box on New Years, which I found out on the weekend is best with a pouring pressure of 120kpa.

Cheers

Robbo