"cara" And 'crystal' Malts Explanations?

[LLoyd]

Is there a difference between what Weyermann call Cara malts and crystal? What effect do they have on beers? I've picked up little bits of info, but am lacking comprehensive knowledge of what they really do.

 

[brettprevans]

ive posted these somewhere else but nfi where. lots of bedtime reading for you lloydi, more info than you'll ever want
View attachment grain_comparison.xls
View attachment grain_guide.xls
View attachment malt_guide.doc

 

[Adamt]

They're just names really, they are both caramelised malts - they only need to be steeped as the starches are already converted. They contribute a sweetness and thickness of body and the sugars are not considerably fermentable.

The colour of the crystal malt is a good indication of the taste it will impart. The flavour range goes from light, sugar-like sweetness, to light caramel, to dark caramel, to treacle-like and molasses-like.

 

[LLoyd]

Brilliant!
Thanks fellas. Both just what I needed! :icon_cheers:

 

[Fourstar]

They're just names really, they are both caramelised malts - they only need to be steeped as the starches are already converted. They contribute a sweetness and thickness of body and the sugars are not considerably fermentable.
The colour of the crystal malt is a good indication of the taste it will impart. The flavour range goes from light, sugar-like sweetness, to light caramel, to dark caramel, to treacle-like and molasses-like.

Everything adam said above with the exception of carapils.. This is notoriously known as 'dextrin malt' in the USA and does what it is called. Add unfermentable dextrins. A perfect way to increase the body or add dextrins you have not gained for adjunct if you dont wish to meddle with mash temps. e.g. using 5-10% in your grist is a good way to ensure your head retention is there if you use lots of sucrose, corn or rice and your body is not super thin by using adjunct in your beer.

 

[Bribie G]

There is also an interesting summary of all malt types on this Wikipedia page: linky

Edit: thanks for the reminder about Carapils, 4*, I keep forgetting to order the bloody stuff (mental block I should get it tattoed on my wrist). It would go great in my house lager which has a fair few adjuncts.

 

[Fourstar]

There is also an interesting summary of all malt types on this Wikipedia page: linky

Edit: thanks for the reminder about Carapils, 4*, I keep forgetting to order the bloody stuff (mental block I should get it tattoed on my wrist). It would go great in my house lager which has a fair few adjuncts.

Contrary to some homebrewing beliefs as it being a useless grain, i find it acceptable to use in some/most situations. You dont notice alot, if anything flavour wise with your beers but it does adjust mouthfeel, graininess and foam in your beers. Something i dont always get with just ramping up mash temps. some higher mash temps can seem syrupy whereas carapils seems to be 'fuller'. Ive been looking at alot of Mike Mcdoles recipes as of late and he goes nuts with the stuff.. 7%+ in some instances. Im trying some in my Pale ale mania APA/AIPA entrys to see if it adjusts my head retention and mouthfeel for my APA's which usually suck in this area.

 

[drtomc]

Dumb question for the day:

When you include crystal malts in your mash, why are the sugars not converted to fermentables? Is it just that the kilning process of the mashed-in-situ grain converts the sugars to other sugars (um, I guess via Mallard reactions)?

T.

 

[Fourstar]

Dumb question for the day:

When you include crystal malts in your mash, why are the sugars not converted to fermentables? Is it just that the kilning process of the mashed-in-situ grain converts the sugars to other sugars (um, I guess via Mallard reactions)?

T.

Basically the grain starts off as base malt, gets mashed/soaked. then this is stewed/kilned to the desired SRM. i believe it has similar recations as a high mash temp does.. leeping longer chain protiens in check wich dont break down in the mash or ferment out well.

 

[Swinging Beef]

ive posted these somewhere else but nfi where. lots of bedtime reading for you lloydi, more info than you'll ever want
View attachment 28891
View attachment 28892
View attachment 28893

SS1 is awsome.
I do have crystal malt, after all. Hooray! :icon_chickcheers:

 

[drsmurto]

Contrary to some homebrewing beliefs as it being a useless grain, i find it acceptable to use in some/most situations. You dont notice alot, if anything flavour wise with your beers but it does adjust mouthfeel, graininess and foam in your beers. Something i dont always get with just ramping up mash temps. some higher mash temps can seem syrupy whereas carapils seems to be 'fuller'. Ive been looking at alot of Mike Mcdoles recipes as of late and he goes nuts with the stuff.. 7%+ in some instances. Im trying some in my Pale ale mania APA/AIPA entrys to see if it adjusts my head retention and mouthfeel for my APA's which usually suck in this area.

I am one of those who hates carapils.

To me it is to AG brewers, what maltodextrin is to kit brewers.

Interesting to hear you dont get the desired results from adjusting your mash temp.

As for shoving it in an APA etc to increase head retention and mouth feel, have you thought about some wheat malt or torrified wheat, say 5%? i also like to have some munich or vienna in my APAs. :icon_cheers:

 

[brettprevans]

I always thought carapils was a cheats way/no dried wheat extract. I used it for K&K/K&B/extract if I didnt have wheat extract.

although I suppose if you didnt want any wheat in the beer what so ever then it has a place.

 

[Bribie G]

Like the above posters I've only ever used Carapils in partials and kit brews and haven't used it in AG as yet but would like to try it in my lagers. However in saying it's a 'cheat' grain, isn't that like saying that "any Crystal malt is a cheat grain because you should actually be taking a couple of litres of first runnings and boiling it down to do your own caramelisation to get those toffee notes, shape up you pack of lazy wooses" or that "Melanoidin is a cheat malt because you should be doing a quadruple decoction dressed in your Lederhosen undt leather hat mit feather in it and ve haf vays of making you brew properly. Achtung".

I reckon horses for courses. I just did my first Czech Pilsener and it's the original SMASH being Bohemian Pilsener Malt plus Saaz only. However for my UK and OZ style beers I don't mind using adjucts or 'cheat' malts at all. I read somewhere that without the crystal malts developed at the beginning of the 20th century there would be no UK bitters in their current form.

 

[muckanic]

When you include crystal malts in your mash, why are the sugars not converted to fermentables?

This is one of those great beer controversies. There is a school of thought that the crystal production method creates special types of dextrins which are immune to beta amylase. There is another school of thought that crystal malts should only go in at mashout anyway, particularly if added in such quantities as to require pH balancing. I have made a few high crystal test batches, and would generally say that their fermentability is a lot more than most folks assume. There could be exceptions. For example, if carapils isn't contributing dextrins, then it presumably isn't contributing too much else in the way of flavour either.

There is an even bigger cheat than carapils - corn syrup. One thing I have been meaning to try is caramelising it to simulate decoction effects. BTW, all this stuff about raising mash temperature to create dextrins is sort of correct, but also neglects one other highly significant variable, and that is mash time. The problem is, most home brewers don't have the control precision to fiddle there very well.

 

[Fourstar]

I am one of those who hates carapils.
To me it is to AG brewers, what maltodextrin is to kit brewers.
Interesting to hear you dont get the desired results from adjusting your mash temp.
As for shoving it in an APA etc to increase head retention and mouth feel, have you thought about some wheat malt or torrified wheat, say 5%? i also like to have some munich or vienna in my APAs.

I do get those results by adjusting mash temp but i have found it to be here nor there in some instances.. e.g. offset by carbonation. Maybe its a placebo.. who knows. i rarely use carapils unless im using adjunct or in something i know/expect to have poor retention, low abv, low specialty flavoured beers e.g. a cream ale. i just think it has its place, just like wheat as adjunct i suppose. Im using it for this APA as a test of sorts to see what its like in it. Mike McDole is certianly on the money as he wins lots of comps with some fantastic beers, there must be something good about it! I almost exclusively add some Munich to all my beers (where called for of course) in some way shape or form to transform the base malt from being just 'base' to SUPERBASE! usually somwhere between 5-8%

here is the grain bill for my APA. It's a big chunk and was mashed at 66deg. I'll take a reading shortly and add tasting notes for mouthfeel if its most of the way thru fermentation.

4.50 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe White) (1.7 SRM) Grain 82.6 %
0.40 kg Carafoam (Weyermann) (2.0 SRM) Grain 7.3 %
0.35 kg Munich I (Weyermann) (7.1 SRM) Grain 6.4 %
0.10 kg Caramalt (Joe White) (17.3 SRM) Grain 1.8 %
0.10 kg Crystal (Joe White) (34.2 SRM) Grain 1.8 %

or that "Melanoidin is a cheat malt because you should be doing a quadruple decoction dressed in your Lederhosen undt leather hat mit feather in it and ve haf vays of making you brew properly. Achtung".

Hilarious! :lol:

 

[technocat]

I reckon horses for courses. I just did my first Czech Pilsener and it's the original SMASH being Bohemian Pilsener Malt plus Saaz only. However for my UK and OZ style beers I don't mind using adjucts or 'cheat' malts at all. I read somewhere that without the crystal malts developed at the beginning of the 20th century there would be no UK bitters in their current form.
[/quote]

I just put down the very same recipe today using Bo-Pils and a little wheat. Bittered with Columbus and heaps of Czech Saaz. I have Budvar 2000 so will be interesting to see how it turns out. I have never used cara-pils or kept it in my array of specialty grains.

:icon_cheers:

 

[reviled]

I am one of those who hates carapils.

To me it is to AG brewers, what maltodextrin is to kit brewers.

Interesting to hear you dont get the desired results from adjusting your mash temp.

As for shoving it in an APA etc to increase head retention and mouth feel, have you thought about some wheat malt or torrified wheat, say 5%? i also like to have some munich or vienna in my APAs. :icon_cheers:

Carapils is commonly used in west coast IPA/Apas and isnt all that bad, I personally get quite a big caramel flavour out of it as opposed to head retention or mouthfeel..

Also for the OP, CaraAmber is not actually a crystal malt, contrary to what the name suggets...

 

[Stuster]

Also for the OP, CaraAmber is not actually a crystal malt, contrary to what the name suggets...

I'm pretty sure this is not right. It is a crystal malt. Or at least Weyermann put it in the Caramel malt section of their product details. :lol:

 

[buttersd70]

I'm pretty sure this is not right. It is a crystal malt. Or at least Weyermann put it in the Caramel malt section of their product details. :lol:

Zachery. It is most certainly a crystal....I think reviled is confusing it with Amber......

 

[Guest Lurker]

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