Calculated Bitterness vs. Perceived Bitterness

[domix]

Greetings all.

My beers have been coming out repeatedly under bittered compared to what various programs and calculators seem to indicate. I'm not sure why, as all calculations seem to indicate my beers should be tasting more bitter than they are perceived.
The latest example is an IPA I just kegged:

Recipe Specifications

--------------------------

Boil Size: 30.34 l

Post Boil Volume: 27.04 l

Batch Size (fermenter): 23.00 l

Bottling Volume: 21.60 l (was actually 19L after trub and dry hopping)

Estimated OG: 1.061 SG

Estimated Color: 12.5 EBC

Estimated IBU: 76.2 IBUs

Brewhouse Efficiency: 69.00 %

Est Mash Efficiency: 78.0 %

Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:

------------

Amt                   Name                                      %/IBU

6.20 kg               Golden Promise (Simpsons) (3.9 EBC)       94.9 %

0.33 kg               Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (78.8 EBC)     5.1 %

40.00 g               Magnum [14.0 %] - Boil 60.0 min           53.2 IBUs

20.00 g               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min     3.2 IBUs

20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Boil 5.0 min           2.1 IBUs

20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min           4.9 IBUs

20.00 g               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  4.0 IBUs

20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  15.0  2.6 IBUs

20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Steep/Whirlpool  15.0  6.1 IBUs

20.00 g               Amarillo Gold [8.50 %] - Dry  0.0 Day     0.0 IBUs

20.00 g               Cascade [5.50 %] - Dry  0.0 Days          0.0 IBUs

20.00 g               Simcoe [13.00 %] - Dry  0.0 Days          0.0 IBUs

Mash was 67 C (tested to have pH 5.5). Yeast US-05.
OG: 1.062 FG: 1.012
Water profile: [SIZE=10.5pt]Ca 117, Mg 16, Na 4, Cl 68, SO4 254[/SIZE]

60min boil in a Crown urn. Immersion chiller at flameout (down to 70 C for the 15 min hop stand).
Aerated with aquarium pump for 30mins. Ferment at 17 C for 3 days. Up to 18 C till terminal.
Rack to secondary. Dry hop with loose pellets for 3 days. Cold crash and keg.

Hops are 2013 crops from Grain & Grape.

Tinseth IBUs: 76.2
Rager IBUs: 93.9
BIAB Excel Spreadsheet IBUs: 68.4

This beer is bitter but tastes slightly less bitter than a Hop Hog (~44 IBUs) and much, much less than a Mountain Goat IPA (~65 IBUs). It's still damn delicious though.
My current thoughts are either I'm not getting an intense enough boil. Although it definitely is a rolling boil.

Or do these calculators factor in a whirlpool or hopstand at flameout BEFORE chilling?

Any suggestions would be much appreciated!

 

[spog]

Can't help with your question, but 10 hop editions ! , surely with so many additions they would start to interfere with the expected taste,aromas etc ?
Cheers...spog...

 

[Lord Raja Goomba I]

Sounds more like a water issue.

Had a similar problem when I move to Tas and realised that I needed to do some adjustments to the water here. Fixed it and the bitter twang is where I need it to be.

 

[pat86]

How long does it take from flameout to 70C? I thought the extracted bitterness decreases exponentially as temp goes down, are you starting your hop stand steep at 70C?

 

[danestead]

Yeah maybe more sulphate would give a more bitter kick as said above (depending on what your current water chem. is).
Edit: sulphate is already 254ppm. Thats plenty.

How old are your hops and how have they been stored. Could hop degradation be an issue?
2nd Edit (should have read the bloody post properly before replying): 2013 hops is as fresh as so how are you storing them? Vacuum sealed in the freezer away from light?

As for the 15min hop stand at 70 degrees, I'd be calling that 1 or 2 IBU's instead of the 12 odd IBU's your software is calculating. At 70 degrees, only roughly 7% of your normal utilisation occurs.

 

[domix]

Thanks for the feedback.

spog - It's not just this recipe that seems under-bittered. I've made many styles (with much less hop additions) that seemed lacking in bitterness. I now just add in ~20% IBUs than what should sufficient for the recipe.
I was aiming for a real bitter IPA with this one and thought the +65 IBUs would do it. Although I do get some sweetness from dry hops.

pat86 - I put the chiller in the urn 5 min before flameout and start the water flowing at flameout. It drops from boiling to 70 C in about 10 minutes. I leave it at 70 C for the 15 min stand, then start the chilling again.

dane - The hops are bought fresh that day from my LHBS. Vacuum sealed in their fridge. Water chem is calculated using a recent water company report and the EZ_water_calculator spreadsheet.
Good point with the hopstand. Brewsmith 2 I think is set as 10% Utilisation. I'll have a better look at the back end calculations.
These additions were entered as 0 minutes for the BIAB spreadsheet so that would account for the calculated 68 IBUs, rather than the 76 IBUs (Tinseth via Beersmith 2)

My next move would be trying the exact same recipe on a friends pot/burner BIAB combo. His boil is more intense.

Anyone else have similar/different experience using a Crown urn?

 

[beercus]

I have been reading about water chem a lot recently and it seems that Chloride/Sulphate ratio can affect bitterness. I'm not sure on details but yours looks low which should enhance bitterness.
Never easy this game..... but that's what makes it interesting...
Beercus

 

[Black n Tan]

I agree that the steep will give you very few IBU's. If you look at your IBU contributions you will see that you are getting more IBU out of the steep than the 5 minute boil addition for the same amount of hops. Crazy. I set my steep-whilrpool utilisation to 0 in BS when doing hop stands at 70C. Add some sulfate to accentuate bitterness. If it is still lower than expected after that then just increase your target IBUs.

 

[gsouth82]

Although I know nothing on the topic, have you checked your BU:GU ratio. (I think that's what its called). Something to do with the gravity to bitterness ratio? Maybe your balance is out of wack?

 

[Dan Pratt]

Although I know nothing on the topic, have you checked your BU:GU ratio. (I think that's what its called). Something to do with the gravity to bitterness ratio? Maybe your balance is out of wack?

1.249 is the bitterness to Gravity which for an IPA is good.

My first thought was the magnum, yes its bitter but just very clean bittering and your not getting that linger or bitterness hit even at 54ibu which is a bit of a surprise.......... try using Warrior on the next batch as a replacement to the same IBU and use the same late hoping and see if that suits your pallets needs :icon_drool2:

 

[domix]

Good idea Pratty.
I have historically used Horizon, Magnum and Simcoe due to their low co-humulone levels which is meant to reduce 'harsh' bitterness.
Maybe it's the harsh bitterness that I like...
Warrior is about 22-26% whereas what I have been using is sub 20% co-humulone.

Even give Columbus or Pride of Ringwood a go with +30% co-humulone?
I know Mountain Goat use PoR for their IPA.

 

[MHB]

If you are cooling to ~70oC before putting in the hops I personally doubt you would be getting anything near the 8.7 IBU predicted and there goes 12% of your predicted bitterness, I don't know how long the addition of Amarillo before the two at 15 minutes was or the temperature it was added at, but under 70oC your rate of isomerisation will be very low.
if you want more bitterness beef up the early additions
Mark

 

[Not For Horses]

How old is the magnum and how has it been stored? This could have a significant impact on the bitterness.

 

[pat86]

Yep, I think you should move your hop stand to 80-90C or even just do flame out addition,15-20 min stand, then chill down. I'm sure you still get oils and aroma at 70C but a fraction of what you are aiming for re. Bitterness... If it has been across many brews, this could definitely be it.

 

[micblair]

your real question should be Calculated vs Actual bitterness. And, are your favourite breweries actually measuring their own bitterness or using home brewers' approximations?

For example, a whirlpool, hot-stand followed by knocking out to FV could be the better part of 2 hours on the commercial scale (all the while the kettle temp is hovering around the late 80's early 90's).

 

[neal32]

My guess is because of the magnum. Use CTZ for the 60min addition for an APA/IPA. Would never recommend POR.

 

[storeboughtcheeseburgers]

I made a batch of hop hog and I was surprised to find this too - Maybe it is just magnum? I added a little bit of simcoe to the 60 min boil also - but it tasted good for me.. It was a 'semi-chill' beer that came out around 69-70 IBUs in the program.. but my chill was the ice and sink technique.. so I'd imagine it should be even higher than that as it took a while to get down to 70 (when bittering stops) but I am not chasing that bitter 'twang' at all, more a good balance of hops.

I'd go with lord goomba, and adjust your water

 

[domix]

your real question should be Calculated vs Actual bitterness. And, are your favourite breweries actually measuring their own bitterness or using home brewers' approximations?

For example, a whirlpool, hot-stand followed by knocking out to FV could be the better part of 2 hours on the commercial scale (all the while the kettle temp is hovering around the late 80's early 90's).

Both good points. I remember reading somewhere (might have been this forum) about someone testing various commercial beers and them coming up short in regards to labelled IBU's.

Long time spent at isomerisation temps post-boil would have considerable effect on IBU's. Is a hot stand part of brewing software calculations? I can't see anywhere to adjust it in Beer Smith 2.

My guess is because of the magnum. Use CTZ for the 60min addition for an APA/IPA. Would never recommend POR.

I just made this rye IPA recipe:
http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26124

The single addition of Columbus certainly made a more assertive bitterness than what I've gotten with Magnum.
I'm very happy with how it's turned out. Now to start looking at some other hops to bitter with.
Going to try an IPA soon with more of the IBU's from later additions and see how that bitterness tastes.

 

[Blind Dog]

As per LRG, I'd go water as a main cause also. Just try a Bitburger pils (~33IBU) and a Pilsner Urquell (~43IBU) side by side and it's hard to pick the difference in bitterness. I know water is not the only difference, but it is a big factor

And as per MHB, the stand/whirlpool additions at 70C won't be adding much if any bitterness

 

[pat86]

There was a Jamil show where he was talking to a commercial brewer who mentioned 2 IBU stats, can't remember the phrasing but I think it was along the lines of; 60IBU into FV & say 50IBU packaged. No idea of details but there is definitely a difference between the calculated boil and what you get in the glass.