Brewmare!

[tdack]

Everything was going great, I'd planned on making a bit of a Hobgoblin type brew using this as the recipe:

Fermentables

Ingredient	Amount	%	MCU	When

Australian Traditional Ale Malt	   3.000 kg	 60.7 %	 4.3	 In Mash/Steeped

Australian Crystal 140				0.300 kg	 6.1 %	 9.3	 In Mash/Steeped

Australian Roasted Wheat			  0.080 kg	 1.6 %	 24.1	 In Mash/Steeped

Australian Chocolate Malt			  0.060 kg	 1.2 %	 9.5	 In Mash/Steeped

Extract - Light Liquid Malt Extract	 1.500 kg	 30.4 %	 2.1	 Start Of Boil



Hops

Variety	Alpha	Amount	IBU	Form	When

German Northern Brewer		 7.0 %	 40 g	 23.5	 Loose Pellet Hops	 60 Min From End

UK Fuggle					  6.1 %	 20 g	 6.2	 Loose Pellet Hops	 20 Min From End

Slovenian Styrian Goldings	 3.0 %	 20 g	 3.0	 Loose Pellet Hops	 20 Min From End

UK Fuggle					  6.1 %	 25 g	 0.0	 Loose Pellet Hops	 At turn off

Slovenian Styrian Goldings	 3.0 %	 20 g	 0.0	 Loose Pellet Hops	 At turn off

Boil volume was 13L (I brew a half batch at a higher gravity then dilute in the fermenter to get 20L).

Pre-Boil gravity was 1.058, only 2 points off target of 1.060. Volume was down a touch, 12.5L instead of 13L, wasn't too worried. Didn't think I was doing too bad at this stage.

Commenced the boil and chucked hops in at the prescribed times, things were going well, looked and smelled good.

Got the the end of the boil and had about 9.8L, just a touch under my target of 10L (post boil gravity of about 1.075). Did a quick whirlpool and then into the cube for a bit of no-chill, probably left about 250ml in the bottom of the pot with the flame out hop additions.

Purged cube, put it on the verandah to cool and cleaned up the kitchen. This is where it all went bad!

Sitting on the bench beside the stove was an unopened can of Light Liquid Malt Extract looking at me all innocent as if it had done nothing wrong. Nothing other than failing to be boiled for an hour!

Now for the questions .....

Do I add the can of goo when I put it all in the fermenter?
Has this completely screwed the hopping?
Is it all lost?
Won't someone think of the children?

Wise brewers I await your advice (and laughs).

 

[buttersd70]

ooh, a bit of a pickle....
as far as adding the goo, because it's tinned liquid, theres no need to boil (cos it's a tin; it's sterile), so can just be mixed up when going to the fermenter, but as far as the hopping is concerned....good question.

Hang about, I'll whack it into beersmith to have a look and a play around to see what dif it will make. (although I suspect that if you hit target BG without it, then something wierd is going on)...back in a tick

edit: just ran it through beersmith....added your boil size and topup info, and tweaked evap losses to match what you get, and tweaked efficiency to match your actual boil gravity. (71% to kettle, btw. )....

Now, I used 5.1% for the styrian...might want to recheck your pack,I've never seen styrian at 3%....last I had was either 5.1 or 5.4 (can't remember). Doesn't really matter anyway, with it being a small addition for 20min, it makes less than 1 IBU anyway, just thought I'd point it out.....

with the extract added to the boil, the BG would rise from 1058 to 1094, and I got 32.3 IBU...so pretty much what you expected. Without the extract, BG remained at 1058 and the utilisation increased, giving you 44.3IBU.

So this would change the BUGU from ~52%, to ~ 71%.
There are a couple of options....just need to check something, back in a tic....

 

[tdack]

although I suspect that if you hit target BG without it, then something wierd is going on

The something weird is probably an incorrect correction applied to the hydrometer reading taken in hot wort, so the 1.058 could be a couple or three points lower still.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

if you hit all your gravity targets with the extract not in there - just leave it out??

or did I miss something vital?

 

[buttersd70]

I think that the projected BG of 1060 would be without the extract, even though the extract is included in the boil (and the utilisation bears that out).....all the numbers in beersmith point to that, all the parameters appear very normal....1060, before adding extract. But hops are calculated at 1060 plus extract (1094), the softwares just not making that transparent.....

Let me check some dilutions...back in a mo

 

[manticle]

I'm with thirsty boy.

I have nothing against extract in the slightest but why not save it for something where it's needed?

 

[buttersd70]

OK.

Having run it through several ways, I've come to this conclusion....the recipe needs the extract. Without it, it would only have an OG in the high 30's. I'm convinced that the BG estimate it's giving you is without extract, but even though it's showing that, it's using the extract in the boil for working out the utilisation.

the way I see it, you have several options.

option 1
add the extract when making up to 20L, and live with 44IBU/1061 and 0.71 BUGU

option 2
add the extract, make up to 20L, and add more extract to give OG of ~1080 to bring the bugu back down. Not the best option at all, imo....

option 3
Add the extract when mixing. Push it up to 25L, which will dilute your ibu down to 35.8IBU due to the change in volume. Add additional extract to push the OG back up to 1061...this will give you BU:GU of 0.58, which is fairly close-ish to smurtos BUGU (and imo is closer to the mark anyway).
You would need to add an extra 800g of dry extract (aprox) to do this.Your ratio of grain vs extract would still be >50%. This is probably what I would do.

Options 1 and 3 are the only sensible options IMHO. I'd probably be inclined to do option 3, get a keg, and some bottles left over. The only major downside is that the latehops are now 0.8g/L instead of the intended 1g/L for each type....not too much of a prob imo, but if hop flavour is lacking, you can always dry hop. I personally wouldn't, I'd leave it as is, but it's up to you.

You can do with it whatever you'd like, this is just my 2c on it. hope it helps.


edit:

What you got........

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 20.00 L
Boil Size: 13.05 L BOIL GRAVITY 1058 as measured
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 42.6 EBC
Estimated IBU: 44.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 71.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.50 kg Pale Liquid Extract POST BOIL (6.0 EExtract 30.4 %
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe WhitGrain 60.7 %
0.30 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 6.1 %
0.08 kg Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) (1477.5 EGrain 1.6 %
0.06 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBGrain 1.2 %
40.00 gm Northern Brewer [7.00%] (60 min) Hops 29.9 IBU
20.00 gm Fuggles [6.10%] (20 min) Hops 7.9 IBU
20.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.10%] (20 min) Hops 6.6 IBU


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 3.44 kg
----------------------------


Notes:
------
ibu from troys calcs = 32.7....styrian is only at 3pc? Not a lot of dif, though....with extract at start of boil, IBU = 32.3, with it added post boil, IBU = 44.3


what you could turn it into....

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 25.00 L
Boil Size: 13.30 L BOIL GRAVITY 1058 as measured
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 37.1 EBC
Estimated IBU: 35.8 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 71.0 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
0.80 kg Light Dry Extract post boil (7.0 EBCDry Extract 13.9 %
1.50 kg Pale Liquid Extract POST BOIL (6.0 EExtract 26.1 %
3.00 kg Pale Malt, Traditional Ale (Joe WhitGrain 52.3 %
0.30 kg Crystal (Joe White) (141.8 EBC) Grain 5.2 %
0.08 kg Wheat, Roasted (Joe White) (1477.5 EGrain 1.4 %
0.06 kg Chocolate Malt (Joe White) (750.6 EBGrain 1.0 %
40.00 gm Northern Brewer [7.00%] (60 min) Hops 24.1 IBU
20.00 gm Fuggles [6.10%] (20 min) Hops 6.4 IBU
20.00 gm Styrian Goldings [5.10%] (20 min) Hops 5.3 IBU


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 3.44 kg
----------------------------


Notes:
------
ibu from troys calcs = 32.7....styrian is only at 3pc? Not a lot of dif, though....with extract at start of boil, IBU = 32.3, with it added post boil, IBU = 44.3

beersmith d!cked around with the boil grav slightly, but it's only a couple of hundred mls in either case.

 

[tdack]

I think that the projected BG of 1060 would be without the extract, even though the extract is included in the boil (and the utilisation bears that out).....all the numbers in beersmith point to that, all the parameters appear very normal....1060, before adding extract. But hops are calculated at 1060 plus extract (1094), the softwares just not making that transparent.....

Let me check some dilutions...back in a mo

I use BeerAlchemy under OS X. Having a fiddle with that and switching the extract from pre- to post- boil gives me an IBU of around 45, so a little more bitter than originally planned. Unfortunately BeerAlchemy doesn't present the intermediate gravity numbers, mainly post-boil, before diluting. Though with a bit of maths I should be able to work that out

I tend to agree with you on the numbers, I think the pre-boil target is before adding extract, but the usage is calculated based on the extract being present in the boil.

I'm with thirsty boy.

I have nothing against extract in the slightest but why not save it for something where it's needed?

I'm limited by the space and equipment I have available, hence why I do a partial and then add extract to make up the rest. It works for me and I'm happy to wear the few extra dollars that it costs me in hops to end up with tasty beers. Plus I enjoy the process as much as the end results.

 

[manticle]

Completely misread and misunderstood the original question.

I thought you brewed high gravity and then just added water to dilute. My mistake.

 

[buttersd70]

I'm limited by the space and equipment I have available, hence why I do a partial and then add extract to make up the rest. It works for me and I'm happy to wear the few extra dollars that it costs me in hops to end up with tasty beers. Plus I enjoy the process as much as the end results.

That's the main thing.

imo, a partial with 50% of the fermentables coming from grain is every bit as good as AG.....in fact, my best beer to date, ever, was a partial at 50%...similar method, but double the size (ie concentrated mash for 20L, diluted to 40)...but I was off my nut when I did the actual dilution and pitched it, and think I did something wrong (or right), cos I've never been able to replicate it. :lol:

 

[hoohaaman]

Btw Butters you don't need that sig.

You are much more classy then that

 

[tdack]

Butters,

Thanks for the late night number crunching. You really need to get out a bit.

I think I'll go option 1, add the goo to the fermenter and see how it turns out. I think I've done enough damage to it already without trying to add more water and more malt, I think I would just end up further in the poo.

Once again, thanks for the valuable advice.

 

[acoulson]

Completely misread and misunderstood the original question.

I thought you brewed high gravity and then just added water to dilute. My mistake.

I read it that way too. :lol:

 

[buttersd70]

No worries, Troy.

fwiw, with option 1, the ratio of bitterness isn't all that high at all; it's just higher than hobgoblin is. It should still turn out as a cracking beer, just might take a couple more weeks to smooth out the rough edges than the lower hopped version, that's all.

 

[tdack]

Well the disaster has had a week in the fermenter and the SG is coming down, still needs to drop a couple more points.

If the sample tube tastes are anything to go by I'll be making this again, with the goo added post boil. So far it's tasting great (if a little sweet at the moment) and the aroma is pretty good too.

I think I might have to put some of this into bottles rather than all into the keg, I have a feeling I'm going to want to have some after the keg has gone.

 

[buttersd70]

I love it when a plan comes together!

 

[tdack]

Well being the impatient alcoholic that I am I couldn't wait. Chucked the keg in the fridge last night and threw it on the gas.

Gave the tap a nudge this afternoon, still lacking a little on the carbonation front, but a mighty fine drop none the less. The bitterness is a bit higher than a Hobgoblin, but the flavour is pretty good.

All up I'm pleased with the result, I'll give it another week or so before trying it again, but I think it is going to disappear pretty quick after that.

 

[Wisey]

Troy, there's a little impatient alcoholic in all of us

Sounds like a nice drop