Brew Techniques For Quality And Economy (like Yeast Cake Reuse, Toucan

[Nick JD]

Is it too much to ask for one section to be devoted to kit brewing.

Yes.

 

[Anofre]

'Consider all grain' is a reasonable statement to a kit brewer wanting to enhance quality.
I wish someone had have told me that 10 years earlier...

 

[cam89brewer]

F#$k me

Nick - if you don't like kit brewing don't read this section of the forum. Every time there is a discussion about kit brewing you have to post about BIAB and how you think its the ducks nuts. If people want to know about BIAB maybe they can wander over to the Common Ground, All Grain sections or Beginners/Partials.

Is it too much to ask for one section to be devoted to kit brewing.

What was probably going to be a useful thread for kit brewers has now been hijacked.

It was only a suggestion. Does any one in the all grain threads tell K&K brewers to *&$% off? No.......... This website is based on providing possible new idea's and sharing knowledge.

 

[Kevman]

It was only a suggestion. Does any one in the all grain threads tell K&K brewers to *&$% off? No.......... This website is based on providing possible new idea's and sharing knowledge.

Do any of the Kit brewers tell the All grain brewers when something goes wrong or it doesn't quite taste right that maybe they should use kits instead?

This website is about sharing knowledge. The Kits and Extracts section used to be pretty vibrant but now it seems to be pretty quiet. I put it down to that every topic seems to include an AG or BIAB comment so that many possible contributors go elsewhere or just lurk.

People know about all grain. If they don't, then being on this forum for a month or so,they will have read articles and had a look at those forums out of curiosity and will learn about All Grain brewing. If they want to do it, they will do it. If not then that's their choice also.

For a knowledge sharing resource, pissing people off because of how they choose to make their beer and tell them that they are making shit beer simply because they used a kit is hardly increasing the membership numbers or increasing knowledge.

 

[cam89brewer]

Do any of the Kit brewers tell the All grain brewers when something goes wrong or it doesn't quite taste right that maybe they should use kits instead?

This website is about sharing knowledge. The Kits and Extracts section used to be pretty vibrant but now it seems to be pretty quiet. I put it down to that every topic seems to include an AG or BIAB comment so that many possible contributors go elsewhere or just lurk.

People know about all grain. If they don't, then being on this forum for a month or so,they will have read articles and had a look at those forums out of curiosity and will learn about All Grain brewing. If they want to do it, they will do it. If not then that's their choice also.

For a knowledge sharing resource, pissing people off because of how they choose to make their beer and tell them that they are making shit beer simply because they used a kit is hardly increasing the membership numbers or increasing knowledge.

Wow......

 

[stux]

Wow......

The reality is that thread title is "Brew Techniques for Quality and Economy"

the reply of "Consider BIAB" is valid.

If you've got a bunch of mates around faffing about for a few hours making beer... might as well faff about for a few more hours and make really good and cheap beer.

BUT that's a big leap, and fair enuff.

The concern is that you end up with bad beer and then you don't make any more beer

...

The funny thing is if you have 4 mates going equals on double or triple batches, you're going through a bag of grain every 2 or 3 brews. That means you can really get your grain prices down. Bulk buy aussie ale malt, re-use yeast. Be stingy on the hops.

Find an ... ahem... pre-loved keg and a nasa burner and you're away.

And that's the way to make really cheap quality beer...

25KG bag of aussie grain will set you back about 50$ in a bulk buy.

That's enough for 5 batches.

10$/batch for malt + hops + yeast

Buying 3 pounds of hops from yakimavalley hops works out to 14$/pound... circa 3$/100g

So, say 2$ of hops + 10$ of malt + $1 yeast + 4$ gas = 17$/batch

And the yeast you can harvest as much as you want to save

That's a great way for a bunch of mates to make cheap quality beer

BUT you can grow into that, get the cold side good and start playing with hops now

 

[Anofre]

Back OT:
Age the beer.
Do doubles each week to stock up & try only drink half of the batch.
4 - 6 months to get rid of the 'homebrew' taste & your mates will think it's commercial.
Our family staple was 2x coopers lager + 4kg raw sugar in 44L aged 6 months for over a decade. Didn't ever deviate!

 

[glenwal]

People know about all grain. If they don't, then being on this forum for a month or so,they will have read articles and had a look at those forums out of curiosity and will learn about All Grain brewing.

Have you actually read any posts on this website? A huge portion of them are people asking the same 5 or 6 questions over and over. You'd think they would have seen the other posts and read the answers - but they haven't.

Switching to AG ingredients-wise is alot cheaper but its the additional equipment, time and care required that may be hard to sell to the troops.

And (not meaning to target the OP here), but this kind of prooves the point.

a) The additional equipment required is a $19 pot from Big W, and some voil from Spotlight - There is a huge thread about this, and many many other threads talking about it
b ) About the only thing remotely right in this statement is the additional time required - but as a few people have already said - if this is brewing being done by a few mates together, are they really just getting together for the 10 mins it takes to tip a tin in a fermenter? Or could they see them selves sitting around having a few whilst waiting for the mash or boil. Whilst its true AG takes a larger period of time, the amount of time spent actually doing stuff isn't much longer.
c) The additional care required - AG doesn't need additional care. Decent brewing requires additional care - it doesn't matter if its kit or AG.

(Again, sorry Buckerooni - not aiming this at you as you seem to be willing to listen to other peoples opinions).

No one said here that kits produce bad beer - they offered AG as a method of producing cheap quality beer (which is exactly what the OP was asking for). Its rare to see someone on these forums say kits are crap (note: saying AG produces better beer is not saying kits are crap) - but it seems quite common that kit brewers jump up and down and try to tell people no to bother with AG and to stick with kits and really comes down to nothing more than jealously, where you don't want someone else to advance just because you haven't.

 

[stux]

Have you actually read any posts on this website? A huge portion of them are people asking the same 5 or 6 questions over and over. You'd think they would have seen the other posts and read the answers - but they haven't.

And (not meaning to target the OP here), but this kind of prooves the point.

a) The additional equipment required is a $19 pot from Big W, and some voil from Spotlight - There is a huge thread about this, and many many other threads talking about it

The one problem with that point is that a half batch isn't going to go very far amongst the "troops", and the equipment to do full volume singles or doubles is relatively expensive, compared to a can opener

70L pot, good burner and two cubes will get you doing BIAB doubles

Order a few craftbrewer FWKs to get the cubes and some "all grain" beer to taste test with the troops and you have the sales job done... and your cubes taken care of

Another point with the cubes... if you do do double cubes... you can always ferment one at a time...

You could for example brew the cubes yourself in your own time if that were the problem and then the "troops" could add the yeast

 

[glenwal]

The one problem with that point is that a half batch isn't going to go very far amongst the "troops", and the equipment to do full volume singles or doubles is relatively expensive, compared to a can opener

70L pot, good burner and two cubes will get you doing BIAB doubles

Doing a full batch in a 19L pot isn't hard (theres a big thread on this too). Doing doubles - then yes, you'll need to spend a bit on a pot and a burner. But if your splitting the cost across 3-4 people, then its really not alot per person. Yes, more than a can opener, but its also offset by being able to bulk buy ingredients reducing the cost of each brew, and if brewing for 3-4 people doesn't take long to pay for its self.

 

[michael_aussie]

Where the hell are you getting FWK's for 50 cents a litre...
any I have seen run from $40 and up.....$2+ a litre by my calculations.

ooops .. yes .. late at night .... i inversed in my head!!!

yes $2/litre

 

[Kevman]

The reality is that thread title is "Brew Techniques for Quality and Economy"

The reality is that the thread title is
Brew Techniques For Quality And Economy (like Yeast Cake Reuse, Toucan, well, this is the kit and kilo forum!

So BIAB isn't probably an appropriate answer.

The other issue with 4 of them is that if they are splitting the costs and someone wants to pull out. Do they lose any money that has been put in to buy ingredients and equipment? Do they get paid out and how do you estimate on how much to be given to them.

Also it sounds as though the OP is the keen one for homebrew but the gear and brewing is done at mates place. How much extra equipment does this mate want in the house/garage?

Have you actually read any posts on this website? A huge portion of them are people asking the same 5 or 6 questions over and over. You'd think they would have seen the other posts and read the answers - but they haven't.

Or they read the other posts asking about how to make better K&K and they get told go all grain or BIAB. They don't want to do that so they keep asking hoping for a different answer.

 

[Cactus]

I've gone to brewing close to 60 longnecks in a batch.


Once fermentation finishes add 12 litres boiled and cooled water to bottling bucket
with proper amount of dissolved priming sugar ( around 200 g ) and rack in half of finished brew, stir gently and bottle.

Repeat with second half of brew.

Result is around 49 litres or 65 longnecks of excellent beer at around 4.4% abv.

Now this is a way to build stocks ! I thank you sir, such a simple idea but I would never have thought of it.

Can I ask a reasonably simple question ? with the huge amount of fermentables (with a version of this recipe tailored to suit me I get OG of about 1.1) would you be adding 2 sachets of yeast (US 05) ?

 

[buckerooni]

this discussion is great actually and it's giving me some great ideas and direction so thanks for all the input. I understand the passion people have for their brewing sub-genres and I'm open to it all that this stage. Kinda like me being a big mountain bike rider and pitying all the roadies - both cyclists but see things differently!

BIAB is a direction I would like to head eventually but the K&K style suits the group at this point and I think will always some in handy to know good fast & simple recipes for those times in the future we don't have an afternoon to get some beer down. In the future I reckon they'll be afew BIAB brew days (bigger efforts) peppered amongst the regular K&K volume brews to keep the thirsty masses at bay!

BIAB/AG time effort is still a factor so I want to get the process right so veryone to understands the basic pinciples of sanitation, timing, process, ingredients and their relationship to the process.

one of the blokes is a sparky and comes across large urns from time to time, which will be the trigger to consider other techniques like BIAB, but until that comes along, quality high volume effective brewing at a reasonable cost is the goal.

My ears are still open!

 

[thylacine]

Now this is a way to build stocks ! I thank you sir, such a simple idea but I would never have thought of it.

Can I ask a reasonably simple question ? with the huge amount of fermentables (with a version of this recipe tailored to suit me I get OG of about 1.1) would you be adding 2 sachets of yeast (US 05) ?

Re POST fermentation dilution: Googling this topic will reveal a variety of yes/no/maybe/etc. positions

eg. http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...40747&st=20 perhaps start with posts #28 & 29

cheers

 

[petesbrew]

The 4 guys brewing team idea sounds good, as long as you all have the same goals.
I know for now it's all about cheap beer, but are you going to do the same thing over and over, or experiment and try new flavours & styles?

Cheap is good, but then you're drinking rubbish cos "sugar is heaps cheaper than malt".
I'd say a lot of us get into the hobby at first due to the cheapskate factor, but then get excited and obsessed...

Take what advice you want from all posts above, and see where it takes you all.
US-05 is a great yeast to keep on hand (bottle the dregs of the yeast cake for future yeast starters)

Recipe wise - Dr Smurto's Golden Ale recipe (the KnK version) could be one to try out with your mates.
I did a similar one with a cheap Wanders (or Brigalow) kit and it worked beautifully.

At least the bottling production line will work well!

 

[iralosavic]

I guess the equation is quality vs quantity. Simple things like actually using a lager yeast will go a long way to producing a superior lager (nb. just about all kits come with ale yeasts or, at best, hybrids). You can almost negate the extra cost by collecting the yeast again after fermentation is complete and you have racked the beer. There are many articles/discussions on the topic.. and it can really be as straight forward as diluting the yeast cake a bit and scooping up the yeasty liquid and storing it in a beer bottle in the fridge.

I moved to BIAB from kits and would never go back as an ongoing thing. I just enjoy the actual recipe creation and brewing process of AG too much. The beer quality is better too, in my humble opinion.

Stux is right in saying that you can produce commercial quality (hell, even better) Aussie lagers as cheaply as kit beers using BIAB methods. The biggest hurdle is the initial outlay to get set up.

For your current position, your best bet is most likely buying a 60L fermenter and throwing in 2 coopers lager cans and 1-2kg of sugar and lashing out on a couple of packs of dried lager yeast like 34/70, assuming you have good fermentation temperature control.

 

[Goose]

Fellas, I see a bit of angst floating around on KnK brewers encouraged to go AG as the answer to better beer.. I can't argue that AG makes better beer but I do agree the question raised is about the process to make KnK better in terms of cost and time efficiency... :huh:

- toucan recipes - simple and easy producing good tasting beer

yep, if u like a very bitter brew.... otherwise just as easy to toucan using one kit and second can of LME if you can find it

- yeast cake reuse - of the non-rinsing variety

am interested in the same thing, in fact posted this in the Ag section, but maybe should have put in the common ground section since it applies to any wort fermentation methinks... but have a read, some good stiff in there both positive and negative on doing this : http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=65013

- brew again straight after bottling - makes sense with the yeast reuse, also get 2 things done in the 1 night

If you can get the timing right, if not, more bottles .... :lol:

- syringe tallie priming - simple, easy, fast and cheap

yep, cheaper than coopers lollies and less painful than measuring scoops of dextrose... have you considered bulk priming ? ie just rack into a second carboy, add your entire sugar solution, stir and bottle... I'd argue less stuffing around than syringing 30 bottles... personal choice I guess.

 

[iralosavic]

Cans $11.50x2 $23 (big W price)
2kg sugar $2
34/70 $6

$31 for 60L

52c/L - ongoing yeast costs, probably 45c/L - and for an Aussie lager that will taste pretty close to as good as a lot of what's on offer commercially, allbeit a bit cloudier - but you can even fix that by cold conditioning and rotating several brews to keep supplies constant.

I guess the equation is quality vs quantity. Simple things like actually using a lager yeast will go a long way to producing a superior lager (nb. just about all kits come with ale yeasts or, at best, hybrids). You can almost negate the extra cost by collecting the yeast again after fermentation is complete and you have racked the beer. There are many articles/discussions on the topic.. and it can really be as straight forward as diluting the yeast cake a bit and scooping up the yeasty liquid and storing it in a beer bottle in the fridge.

I moved to BIAB from kits and would never go back as an ongoing thing. I just enjoy the actual recipe creation and brewing process of AG too much. The beer quality is better too, in my humble opinion.

Stux is right in saying that you can produce commercial quality (hell, even better) Aussie lagers as cheaply as kit beers using BIAB methods. The biggest hurdle is the initial outlay to get set up.

For your current position, your best bet is most likely buying a 60L fermenter and throwing in 2 coopers lager cans and 1-2kg of sugar and lashing out on a couple of packs of dried lager yeast like 34/70, assuming you have good fermentation temperature control.

 

[Nick JD]

...for an Aussie lager that will taste pretty close to as good as a lot of what's on offer commercially, allbeit a bit cloudier - but you can even fix that by cold conditioning and rotating several brews to keep supplies constant.

I could never get my K&K beers to taste like commercial beer.

What a lot of the Kit Brewers don't realise is nearly every single person who now brews AG beers thinks, "Fark, why didn't I learn to do this years ago. My beers are now perfect and brewing has changed from being a chore to a hobby."

This brewer's paradigm shift fosters uncontrollable evangelistic wont to convert; to save the souls of those still consuming the Devil's Twang.