Braumeister V Biab Actual Results?

[Jonesy_sa]

Hi all,
Just curious who out there has used the Braumeister and compared it against BIAB?
What sort of benefits are obtainable over the BIAB method?
Will the circulation of liquid make much of a difference?
Will the temperature control make noticeable differences or at least the ability to step temperatures?

Cheers
Jonesy

 

[bignath]

I don't own a BM and i am a 3V not BIAB brewer, but from what i can tell, the major selling points on the BM vs BIAB with an urn or particularly gas fired BIAB, would be automation of the brewing process (to a degree atleast) therefore increasing repeatability of results.

Comparing to a 3V (which your not), the obvious other one would be footprint size.

Interested to hear from others on this aswell actually.

 

[stux]

Also, clear wort into the boil, which you don't get from BIAB.

Not saying clear wort is necessary, but BM's develop a grain bed which filters the wort during the circulation

 

[Bribie G]

Historical Note: BIAB in its present form was an idea kicked about by the likes of Thirsty Boy, SpillsMostOfIt and Pistol Patch to name but three pioneers, who had looked at the Braumeister and concluded that a single vessel brewing system was not only clearly feasible, but how do we knock one up at home.

So the two systems have a lot in common. Main differences are the recirculation and accurate temperature control. This is facilitated by the "malt pipe" which if you think about it is analagous to a bag, but solid and with a false bottom. Therefore a true grain bed can be achieved with clear wort remaining in the kettle prior to boiling.

With BIAB this is difficult to achieve because although you can do recirculation with a March pump and get the accurate temperature control using a PID and heat source (for example the existing element in an electric urn based system) you can't really get a proper grain bed happening as the wort drains out of the bag in all directions initially, taking the path of least resistance. So the sweet wort is cloudy.

Is this a problem? With a good boil and floccing compounds in the boil such as Brewbrite or Koppafloc or Whirlfloc I'd say no, as you can drop the trub quite quickly and get crystal clear wort into the cube / fermenter which is really what counts IMHO. I even now produce really clear fresh delicate lagers from wort that was cloudy to begin with.



For example in the above photo the crud on the bottom is hot break, one of these two Schott Bottles is what I ran the first litre into, out of the urn. Then the rest was crystal clear runnings until I spotted a bit of gunk starting to come through so I collected the last litre into that second bottle. The concept of headers and tailers would be familiar to the practitioners of another drinks producing method that we don't talk about here.
(The clear stuff from both bottles went into a starter which was fair hammering by the time the cube had cooled for pitching.)

 

[Nick JD]

Vorlauf is German for arsehat.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I agree with everything Bribie said except the naming of me as a pioneer. I wasn't. I was a reasonably early adopter and have made some effort to rationalise the obviously successful (and initially unexpected) results of BIAB with some of the theory - but had nothing to do with formulating the concept in the first place.

 

[MHB]

Vorlauf is German for arsehat.

Were you making a point or just demonstrating that Nick JD is another term for arsewipe?
If you have nothing to contribute to a discussion that other members might find interesting why post shit.
MHB

 

[Zizzle]

Gather around kiddies and let me tell you a story about the father of BIAB... Mr Pistol Patch... here is the thread that started it all:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=11074

AHB was a different place back then. Most posts were about brewing. And there was an imbalance in the force.

Pat had just started brewing AG and was writing massive excited positive essays nearly every night. Darren was still running around pissing on everything he could, but no one could keep up with the energy and volume of Pistol Patch.

In addition to his encyclopedic public posts, Pat was also PMing everyone madly, and I'm sure had both Ross and MHB on speed-dial and was hassling them continuously.

Lots of people were experimenting with the ideas. Most seemed to like the bucket with holes into the bottom scheme.

Without a doubt Pat was the most enthusiastic, and he seemed to be the one that thought up and went to the trouble of getting one of his neighbours to sew up a bag.

BIAB on AHB was born:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...11074&st=71

I went over to Pat's and tasted the BIAB success he had with Ross's Schwartzbier, and decided I had to do it too.

Pat had already declared it a perfect beer:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...c=11499&hl=

I splashed out $6 (which was lot in 2006 money) and made up a bag just like Pat's (only with Red thread to make it go faster), borrowed a pot from Pat and was a guinea pig for Pat's first iteration of the famous BIAB instruction manual.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=149192

Fingerlickin_B was along for the ride too:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=150154

Not long after that the legend of the FNQ Bunyip and the burned bag got around:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...st&p=154589

Then I was onto electric BIAB:

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=12282

which I stayed with until the first brewbot was conceived.

The good old days of AHB.

There were still doubters, and so BIAB beers had to go on to achieve some competition results before it had "made it".

Fast forward a few years and I'm in the US riding a motorcycle across the country, through the desert. I meet a girl. She says she brews. She brews in a bag. I say I know the bloke who invented that. And the rest is history.

 

[Newbee(r)]

Fast forward a few years and I'm in the US riding a motorcycle across the country, through the desert. I meet a girl. She says she brews. She brews in a bag. I say I know the bloke who invented that. And the rest is history.

For further reading, Zen and the Art of Brewing Efficiently is surely soon to be released. :icon_cheers:

Seriously though, this bit of innovation is a game changer for the hobby. I know when I was keen to get more control over my K&K recipes the thought of sacrificing the garage and a whole day of a precious weekend brewing and cleaning meant 3 tier systems were not going to do it for me. Stumbed on a BIAB thread and I'm hooked. Can still get the V8 in the garage for buff and polish and make 2 cases of stone and wood pacific ale, a batch of punk IPA or whatever else I feel like for $25.

Thanks fellas!

 

[Bribie G]

Game changer, as indeed is the BrauMeister.

At the risk of being totally (as opposed to moderately) boring, and hoping that I haven't thrashed the subject to death but:

When home brew had its renaissance in the UK in the 1960s / 70s and a bit later in Australia, mostly due to legislative changes, the early AG-at- home pioneers unanimously agreed that the best way to make beer from grains was to look at how things were currently done in breweries and aim to make a scaled down version of:

And as pointed out by Zizzle it took a couple of guys to start thinking outside that particular box and the rest is history along with Zizzle's chick :icon_chickcheers:

 

[Nick JD]

Were you making a point or just demonstrating that Nick JD is another term for arsewipe?
If you have nothing to contribute to a discussion that other members might find interesting – why post shit.
MHB

Making a point.

I've found the whole "clear runnings = better beer" thing is a load of crap. YMMV.

And find someone to give you a hug.

 

[bigfridge]

Making a point.

I've found the whole "clear runnings = better beer" thing is a load of crap. YMMV.

Hi,

It is very well established that there is nothing in the 'cloudy' part of the wort that adds to the beer's quality. It is full of lipids and fatty acids that either retard the yeast's performance or are metabolised by the yeast to form off flavours.

Can those who favour using turbid worts explain how they result in better beer flavour or stability ?

May all your worts run clear !

Dave

 

[Deebo]

Hi,

It is very well established that there is nothing in the 'cloudy' part of the wort that adds to the beer's quality. It is full of lipids and fatty acids that either retard the yeast's performance or are metabolised by the yeast to form off flavours.

Can those who favour using turbid worts explain how they result in better beer flavour or stability ?

May all your worts run clear !

Dave

Somewhat off topic.. but has anyone noticed in their kegs that sometimes the first few pints that are cloudy with yeast have a bit more flavour?
I have had beers that where nice when cloudy but tasted a bit bland once they cleared up (might also just be due to aging)?

 

[Bribie G]

The discussion was not about cloudy wort out of the kettle, but cloudy wort into the kettle prior to boiling. Whether you had clear or cloudy wort into the kettle it is desirable, unless someone can tell me differently, to have clear wort out of the kettle into the cube or chilling device. Normal boiling and settling, with a floccing agent, should achieve that. Either way those lipids etc should be left in the kettle. Even the most crystal clear looking wort into the kettle would still produce break, including cold break in the fermenter. There's a study somewhere from Weihenstephan suggesting that breweries that strove for ultra clear wort into their fermenters could suffer from yeast health problems.

 

[Steve@PMF82]

Hi,

It is very well established that there is nothing in the 'cloudy' part of the wort that adds to the beer's quality. It is full of lipids and fatty acids that either retard the yeast's performance or are metabolised by the yeast to form off flavours.

Can those who favour using turbid worts explain how they result in better beer flavour or stability ?

May all your worts run clear !

Dave

A good boil and the use of whirfloc allows clear wort into the fermenter, thats all that matters to me.
Any stability issues can be helped with polyclar and filtering.

Are you saying that the actual boiling of a cloudy wort , even if it ends up clear into the fermenter will result in a beer with poorer flavour and stability
than one that was clear to start with?

 

[Fourstar]

There's a study somewhere from Weihenstephan suggesting that breweries that strove for ultra clear wort into their fermenters could suffer from yeast health problems.

I remember hearing somewhere (may have been the BN) there was a micro in the US that had a head brewer who was obsessive about having only bright wort in the fermenter at all times. He would goto the effort of dropping out beak from the cone of the fermenter as fermentation was kicking off. Consequently, during his reign almost all of their beers had attenuation problems and this disappeared once he left/the process was abandoned.

 

[bigfridge]

I remember hearing somewhere (may have been the BN) there was a micro in the US that had a head brewer who was obsessive about having only bright wort in the fermenter at all times. He would goto the effort of dropping out beak from the cone of the fermenter as fermentation was kicking off. Consequently, during his reign almost all of their beers had attenuation problems and this disappeared once he left/the process was abandoned.

Clearly the yeast is stressed, and is using the sterols in the cold trub to build the cell walls during reproduction.

A yeast cell typically buds 3-4 times before it dies and this results in the sterol content being reduced to 1/8 or 1/16th of the initial level. These sterols must be replaced in order for the cell wall to function properly, as it is the cell wall that allows the enzymes to pass out and wort sugars to be bought into the cell.

Sterol synthisis requires oxygen and this is the reason that the wort should be oxygenated before pitching. If oxygen is not available, then cold trub can be used by the yeast - but this is less desirable due to the other, unfavourable compounds in the cold trub.

Mashing does influence the amout of trub produced and as it is microscopic you will never see or remove all the trub. But all things being equal it is better to avoid forming the trub (through proper breakdown of protein and starch in the mash) rather than focusing on removing it during boiling.

HTH,
Dave

 

[MHB]

Making a point.

I've found the whole "clear runnings = better beer" thing is a load of crap. YMMV.

And find someone to give you a hug.

Had you posted that I for one would have known what you were talking about Vorlauf is German for arsehat is just a touch cryptic for me.
Having used a Braumeister and done a couple of BIAB brews I dont agree with your assertion. I like my Braumeister but freely acknowledge that it isnt the only option, nor is it necessarily the one that will suit everyone.

Making good beer isnt about any one step in the process; its a cumulative result of doing each step well. Having a bit of grist in the wort at the start of the boil isnt going to instantly make your beer crap, neither is it going to improve the beer, in fact there is no upside to having more crud in the kettle and several known well establisher reasons to have as clear a wort as possible, so we could argue that the less the better.
Apply the same thinking to each step in the brewing process and we make better beer.

Just to keep this thread totally OT as bigfrige mentioned what goes into the kettle influences what comes out of it. If your wort starts out rich in stuff we want to remove during the boil its certain that its going to be harder to get a good separation and that you will get more break material and ultimately less and/or lower quality beer.

Back OT Having done both types of brew, (BIAB and Braumeister) I going to say Yes, the Braumeister offers several advantages you get better cleaner worts, the step mashing options lets you explore some very fine beers (I dont care what anyone says an isothermal Pilsner never quite cuts it) the big one for me is the repeatability, with a Braumeister its possible to make the same beer over again, or to finetune a mash regimen until you are getting exactly the beer you want then make it again...

I think BIAB is a great way to get started in mash brewing, but lets face it if it cost the same to get started with a Braumeister as it does to start BIAB we wouldnt be having this discussion we would all have Braumeisters!
MHB

 

[Nick JD]

Had you posted that I for one would have known what you were talking about "Vorlauf is German for arsehat" is just a touch cryptic for me.

Returning the head to the tail, and all that. I thought that would have been right up your alley...

 

[brett mccluskey]

Hi,

It is very well established that there is nothing in the 'cloudy' part of the wort that adds to the beer's quality. It is full of lipids and fatty acids that either retard the yeast's performance or are metabolised by the yeast to form off flavours.

Can those who favour using turbid worts explain how they result in better beer flavour or stability ?

May all your worts run clear !

Dave

http://www.scientificsocieties.org/jib/pap...06-1016-468.pdf

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