Bottling Fermenter Trub

[Wolfy]

I'm right.

I said it first!

 

[haysie]

Great thing about yeast threads is there are so many of them. A quick search and one can find what their looking for, and generally pick up some great tips, i.e I split my packs via a method TidalPete was/is using, just refined it to suit me. This is just another one them threads. Given the last couple of AHB yeast threads and Nick`s posts, I could see him sticking his head up and starting another thread, was always going to be shot down pretty quickly.
We all know slurries work and "beer of show" many times have been won this way, the score is on the board so to speak. Best practice? to be giving advice? Why not, its just beer! Its his method among dozens or 1000`s as Wolfy mentions.

 

[boobiedazzler]

I'm right.

I'll bet you are. But to within how many degrees?

 

[Murcluf]

I've done this in the past but every now and again you'll get one going paear shaped and I've ditched the starter a starter or two. So I've gotten it the practice of smaking a pack at least 3 days in advance building a starter and taking 4 samples prior pitching. If I do want to save any yeast from a brew I harvest some of the krausen off the top. This practice has saved me the real heartache of pitching shitty yeast

 

[Nick JD]

I'm right.

I'm never right ... but if I want to brew beer anally I'll fart in a schooner.

This method works like a treat, and produces great beer. I never said this is the only way to do it, not once - but short of dribbling in your bottles before you fill them it works perfectly - which brings me to those people who:

A. Couldn't make this method work

and

B. Have never used this method, but through reading every book known to brewing have disclaimed it theoretically and not empirically.

Both A and B are knobs.

 

[brett mccluskey]

Whoa! what a thread! How about this for a method of yeast storage.Simply bottle 6 stubbies of a batch that you want to propagate yeast from,allow to condition,then store in the fridge.you now have 6 2nd generation cultures to make a starter from.I"ve used this method for over 20 years of a/g brewing with no issues,as long as proper sanatation procedures are adhered to. Personally i wouldnt use the slurry without washing(dead cells,trub,hop residue,etc) but thats just me.As an added bonus, you also get to drink the "yeast preserving medium".ie:the beer.! I also make sure that the stubbies are the first ones from the fermenter....so manymethods,so many opinions... :drinks:

 

[beerbog]

I'm never right ... but if I want to brew beer anally I'll fart in a schooner.

Another bottler. +2 :beerbang:

 

[Wolfy]

B. Have never used this method, but through reading every book known to brewing have disclaimed it theoretically and not empirically.

Both A and B are knobs.

If published science has proved a point, if it's been covered by several published experts, and if there is extensive empirical evidence in favor of a specific point, I see no reason why I need to experiment in the hope that it might work differently for me. If that makes me a 'knob' so be it, but it's also the basis of nearly much learning and knowledge transfer.

 

[boobiedazzler]

If published science has proved a point, if it's been covered by several published experts, and if there is extensive empirical evidence in favor of a specific point, I see no reason why I need to experiment in the hope that it might work differently for me.

Sure, take it as rote learning and disregard your own personal observations. Read... and repeat.

There's an element of "Your Experiences May Vary" in most home brew-houses. Hands up how many members are looking at cell count, and not just assuming the best ? I dare say that there would be wide variances if examined through a scopic eye. It would probably surprise the 'assumists' how low (or high) their reproduction process was.

Starters are good, yes. Starters are ******* awesome, if I may share with you boys my opinion. But it is more about the large and active biological growth cycle becoming a fast-acting key to a wort's future. A good, vibrant plan of action.

If I were to do Nick's method of crude samples (and I have), then these days I would make a starter from a portion of the bottled trub. But in the past, I have pitched room temperaturised yeasty trub after three months in the fridge, and the results have been favourable.

IMHO of course. Our experiences may vary in tasting.

If that makes me a 'knob' so be it

You make it sound so final.



.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

choose if you will

Method A: Method A has a number of disadvantages that are recorded in the professional text books, there are good theoretical reasons why it isn't the best choice, lots of experienced brewers suggest that while its OK to an extent, there are inherent issues. But - Brewer X who you have never met, who's beers you have never tasted, says that Method X works for them, therefore any suggestion that method X might be sub optimal is obviously bullshit, people who dont use it are knobs and they have ulterior motives for expressing their concerns with method A.

OR

Method B: Works just as well as method A, has few of the purported disadvantages of Method A, is a little harder to do.

You pick - my choice is sullied by the fact that I am a knob, so you wouldn't want to listen to me.

Oh and Nick... you left out a category of potential knob.

A: Couldn't make this method work

B: Have never used this method, but through reading every book known to brewing have disclaimed it theoretically and not empirically

C: People who have tried it, have made it work, have realised that there are potential issues with it, tried other methods that work as well or better that don't have those issues, have moved on.

That's three kind of knobs that disagree with you not just two - I actually suspect there are quite a few more categories of knobs that disagree with you. But I'll settle for being categorised into the 3rd group until a more suitable category comes up.

 

[boobiedazzler]

Is there a BJCP Style Guideline reference to 'types' of knob?

When people build their 'knowledge', and apply the theories, thus making a better beer, it would be rare for any "respected" home brewer to regress into the so called 'don't do's' for the sake of experimentation. A richer understanding of the five key elements does work, but once we are caught in that quest for completeness of understanding, often the assumptions are made that perceived academic crudeness is many fathoms inferior to an educated zymologist's approach to the next batch.

There are ranges in which the process of brewing can operate.

And there are assumptions often polished up as 'fact'. Which fast become unswayable habit.

Anyone checking the cell count of their yeast ? Who here even has the equipment to do so ?

 

[haysie]

Oh and Nick... you left out a category of potential knob.

A: Couldn't make this method work

B: Have never used this method, but through reading every book known to brewing have disclaimed it theoretically and not empirically

C: People who have tried it, have made it work, have realised that there are potential issues with it, tried other methods that work as well or better that don't have those issues, have moved on.

kNoB C

 

[bigfridge]

So it's impossible to reculture Coopers bottle yeasts and weizen yeasts and get a great beer? That's what you're saying, right? You're also saying (contrary to what many, many people do here) that reusing yeast older than 72 hours old is a bad practice? Mate, there's some very reputable brewers in the comments above who do this ... why would you say it doesn't work if you want to retain your standing here as someone who knows their stuff?

BTW - no hop debris in there. I've never had an infection using yeast this way. Please provide references to your quotes - especially the part about bacteria being able to live in the environment you say they are thriving in. I call a big BULLSHIT on that one.

Retailers = reusing is bad. Gee, I wonder why?

Dear Mr Nick,

I thank the other posters who have backed up what I actually said with their knowledge and experience, rather than what you seem to have wanted me to say so that you can pursue your agenda of personal abuse.

I simply said that I have previously used this method and got consistently poor results and infected beers. I also referenced a recognised author as advising against it. I offered my experience that I have found that storing clean yeast under sterile water gives perfect results over a number of years. Also, commercially bottled beers will have a higher level of sanitation that we can ever hope to acheive in our home breweries. I did not say what anyone should do or not do - I just said what was recommended based on my experience of 30 years of brewing and a published author. I placed it out there in the forum so that people could 'take it or leave it' and make up their own mind.

As for references - you only need to open the book that I refered to and look up 'Yeast Storage' in the index - you will easy find the words that I quoted.

Reusing yeast = good. Reusing infected or unhealthy yeast is bad for the reputation of liquid yeasts.

I am on the record as requesting to the website administrators as not being tagged as a Retailer as I do not sell any retail products. I am actually a professional brewer, consulatant and wholesale supplier to the brewing trade - we do not sell anything retail.

 

[bigfridge]

Do you mean slurry on its own? I store mine with boiled, cooled water (and make starters so infections should reveal themselves). Seems to be OK so far although I also have sterile water + virgin yeast in test tubes which I'm slowly developing each time I buy a new yeast.

Yes it should be slurry with boiled water as this puts the yeast into a dormant state. If beer or wort is present then the yeast continues to metabolise its glycogen reserves and can also suffer autolysis. It is also important that the yeast is sterile as any bacteria present will continue to multiply by using the dead yeast as nutrients and when you step up the quantity of yeast the bacteria is also increased.

What I do is have boiled water in small glass bottles (ie only a few ML in size) and when I pitch the smack pack I leave a small amount of liquid behind. I then rinse out the pack by pouring the water in, swirling around and re-bottling it again. This gives me a thin layer of pure yeast under the sterile water.

I have regularly recultured yeast stored this way after a year or two, but I have also has some failures.

HTH,
Dave

 

[WSC]

Personally I think that you are heading for some infected beer as storing yeast using this method is not recommended. But you don't have to take my word for it (even though I used to do this about 15 years ago and did get bad infections) George Fix in Analysis of Brewing Techniques states that you should only store slurry at 1 deg c for a max of 72 hours.

From your pic there does not seem to be much health yeast - this is the thin white band in the middle. The rest is dead yeast and hop debris. During extended storage, yeast can suffer 'shock excretion' where selected Amino acids leak out of the yeast cell and this is an ideal food for bacteria.

By storing the trub this way you get a situation where the yeast is dying and the bacteria present is growing on the ideal food being provided - end result is bad beer.

Far better to store it under sterile tap water from the original smack pack - much as like Tony has shown elsewhere.

HTH,
David

I agree with the don't store more than 72 hours guidelines.

I have treid keeping it for a week and although sometimes there were no issue's I did get infections, only mild ones but they were there none the less.

Now I bottle a brew, and repitch a cup/stubby into a new brew within 2 hours of bottling. This works for me as I have 2 fermenters and bottle and brew on the same night usually.

I usually only repeat the yeast harvesting for 3 brews. Eg did a saison with 3711, then a english mild saison and then a stout saison version......3 brews from 1 smack pack is good enough economy for me.

 

[Benniee]

What I do is have boiled water in small glass bottles (ie only a few ML in size) and when I pitch the smack pack I leave a small amount of liquid behind. I then rinse out the pack by pouring the water in, swirling around and re-bottling it again. This gives me a thin layer of pure yeast under the sterile water.

What a good idea - I've only ever tried to get the last dregs out of the pack directly rather than tipping in a bit of sanitised or sterile water to swirl around.

I'll be giving this a try next time I open a pack.

Thanks Dave.

Benniee

 

[Fourstar]

What a good idea - I've only ever tried to get the last dregs out of the pack directly rather than tipping in a bit of sanitised or sterile water to swirl around.
I'll be giving this a try next time I open a pack.
Thanks Dave.
Benniee

Or simply wipe an innoculation loop onto the dregs in the pack and streak 4-5 slants! :icon_cheers:

On topic: Nick, I commend your effort for the thread and the intent. However, the process of doing this should not be for extended storage. As it has been clearly laid out by yourself, the reasons for doing this is obviously to cut costs and save time without having to build starters. However you may have missed the point being made by bigfridge and thirsty. You should not be performing this process (extended storage) at the sacrifice of better beer. Which is the whole reason why we are in this HB community.

Also, my understanding is Coopers reseed their bottles with fresh healthy yeast. Much like alot of German Breweries do with their weizens. It's a big difference to reculturing trub.

 

[Nick JD]

Or simply wipe an innoculation loop onto the dregs in the pack and streak 4-5 slants! :icon_cheers:

On topic: Nick, I commend your effort for the thread and the intent. However, the process of doing this should not be for extended storage. As it has been clearly laid out by yourself, the reasons for doing this is obviously to cut costs and save time without having to build starters. However you may have missed the point being made by bigfridge and thirsty. You should not be performing this process (extended storage) at the sacrifice of better beer. Which is the whole reason why we are in this HB community.

Also, my understanding is Coopers reseed their bottles with fresh healthy yeast. Much like alot of German Breweries do with their weizens. It's a big difference to reculturing trub.

I hear ya Fourstar, but I simply haven't found this process to affect the beer to a point where it's an issue. As I said earlier in the thread I have brewed the same recipe and used old stored yeast and virgin yeast, tasted them back to back and found no difference. Perhaps I might find issues with certain strains and not others, but I'm yet to use this method with a strain that produces detrimental results. If you are entering your beer in competitions, perhaps this method isn't for you - but I know winning beers have been made from much, much older than 72 hour trub.

This is more than 3 month old trub-stored yeast. I took this picture today after cleaning up the airlock and lid and replacing it with gladwrap. Escaping the airlock < 36 hours after pitching with no starter.

Yup - the "dead" yeast actually managed to escape the airlock with a 17L brew in a 27L fermenter. The beer is tasting freakin' fantastic. A monk would be proud of it.

So, for sure, this method isn't for everyone - but it makes great beer and saves me money.

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Knob C. And, for the record, mine is the smallest in the room.

Whilst it is true that I have never got an infection that I couldn't grow to like the taste of, I think this plays to the fact that brewing is a numbers game and if you play to the numbers, you are more likely to win.

It is entirely possible that Home Brewer A (as opposed to Knob A, although they *could* be the same person) has deployed a technique that is not entirely according to Hoyle and happened onto a decent (enough) beer. But, I reckon that Home Brewer B (could also be...) who always follows the rules around sanitation and other stuff that affects very small animals will more likely consistently brew very decent beer.

Edit: Attempt at clarification.

 

[Pete2501]

I'm right.

I'm Pete, nice to meet you.
h34r:


Couldn't help myself. The dad jokes have been too many lately.

To bring this thread to epic status it need only include info on how to separate yeast from trub.