Biab Brewer Register

[FNQ Bunyip]

Deaves: its courtesy/etiquette and helpfull to use the last posted list to update with ..



Name................. Brews........... are you still BIABing?........Volume
Pistol Patch............. 24................ Yes........................... 552lt Changed to BIAB
FNQ Bunyip............. 33................ Yes........................... 795lt
SpillsMostOfIt........... 11 .................Yes!..........................274lt No Chill/Electric
Hashie......................8..................Yes.............. ............163lt No chill
MaxT........................5..................No.............. .............115lt
PJ............................1..................Will be........................23lt No Chill.
jimmysuperlative.....10..................Yes................. .over 200lt No Chill
Thirstyboy................5.................. Yes.....................app 50lt
Wardhog..................1...................?...............................23lt
Phonos....................2...................Yes............................42l
Partial
Beer Man.................5...................Yes..........................100lt
davekate.................5...................Yes....................app 100lt No Chill all the way!
Adam......................2...................No.............................46l

Blackbock................4...........Awaiting taste tests...........120lt No Chill
Zizzle......................7...................Yes..........................161
t No Chill/Electric
Phrak......................6....................Yes.........................175l
No Chill for all
Deaves.................. 6...................No.............................app 140lt ..All Chilled


? Are you all takeing the mash out step.. in the Biab guide thred I have noted that I'm getting a gravity incress with this step..

:beer:

 

[Zizzle]

Name................. Brews........... are you still BIABing?........Volume
Pistol Patch............. 24................ Yes........................... 552lt Changed to BIAB
FNQ Bunyip............. 33................ Yes........................... 795lt
SpillsMostOfIt........... 11 .................Yes!..........................274lt No Chill/Electric
Hashie......................8..................Yes.............. ............163lt No chill
MaxT........................5..................No.............. .............115lt
PJ............................1..................Will be........................23lt No Chill.
jimmysuperlative.....10..................Yes................. .over 200lt No Chill
Thirstyboy................5.................. Yes.....................app 50lt
Wardhog..................1...................?...............................23lt
Phonos....................2...................Yes............................42l
Partial
Beer Man.................5...................Yes..........................100lt
davekate.................5...................Yes....................app 100lt No Chill all the way!
Adam......................2...................No.............................46l

Blackbock................4...........Awaiting taste tests...........120lt No Chill
Zizzle......................7...................No..........................161lt No Chill/Electric
Phrak......................6....................Yes.........................175l
No Chill for all
Deaves.................. 6...................No.............................app 140lt ..All Chilled

Let me start out by saying that BIAB is a great way to make the leap to AG brewing. Very cheap and pretty easy to understand.

So why no more for me?

My first two kegged beers were BIAB. By the end of the time in the keg they both tasted very soapy to the point of being undrinkable. Looking up that beer defect on the net has it as an issue with being left on the trub/break to long in the fermenter. But one of those beers was only 7 days grain-to-brain so it had to have happened in the keg.

So after that I was careful not to let any break material into the fermenter. The only problem was that this reduced my efficiency since there was much more wort being left behind mixed with the trub.

I didn't think too much about it until I was over at Brad's one day as he finished a batch sparged brew. He had an order of magnitude less break/trub in the bottom of his kettle than what I usually do. He didn't have to leave very much wort behind in the kettle.

Thinking about this some more I reckon that the grain bed of a batch sparge acts to filter more flour & proteins than the mesh of the bag.

The next beer I tried was a bock. Between the attempted high gravity & high loss to break/trub efficiency sucked rocks.

People were still cheerleading BIAB like it had no problems, while I was struggling.

At about that time a cheapish mash tun became available so I snapped it up and haven't looked back. I feel that my beers have been much better since. Efficiency is up and losses to trub is down.

At the moment I'm having fun collecting gear to automate my brewery. Which reminds me, I should start a thread on my progress.

If I were introducing anyone to AG brewing I would probably start them with BIAB. But also make sure that they are not scared to make the step up when the time comes.

There may well be people out there that can make better beers with BIAB than with traditional methods. I'm not one of them and I doubt anyone I would show it to would be either.

I hope the number of No's (as well as the yeses) on this list continues to grow. It won't mean that BIAB has failed, only that people are willing to keep an open mind and try new things and keep striving to make better beers. BIAB succeeded in making them AG brewers.

 

[blackbock]

Name................. Brews........... are you still BIABing?........Volume
Pistol Patch............. 24................ Yes........................... 552lt Changed to BIAB
FNQ Bunyip............. 33................ Yes........................... 795lt
SpillsMostOfIt........... 11 .................Yes!..........................274lt No Chill/Electric
Hashie......................8..................Yes.............. ............163lt No chill
MaxT........................5..................No.............. .............115lt
PJ............................1..................Will be........................23lt No Chill.
jimmysuperlative.....10..................Yes................. .over 200lt No Chill
Thirstyboy................5.................. Yes.....................app 50lt
Wardhog..................1...................?...............................23lt
Phonos....................2...................Yes............................42l
Partial
Beer Man.................5...................Yes..........................100lt
davekate.................5...................Yes....................app 100lt No Chill all the way!
Adam......................2...................No.............................46l

Blackbock................6...................No............................180lt No Chill
Zizzle......................7...................No..........................161l
No Chill/Electric
Phrak......................6....................Yes.........................175l
No Chill for all
Deaves.................. 6...................No.............................app 140lt ..All Chilled


OK, it is time for me to report that the great 'BIAB' experiment has also come to an end for me. I actually made this decision a while back, and should have reported it here sooner.

After 6 batches I feel confident to say that my efficiency has always been lower than when using conventional means and I also think that I got less clarity in the glass when using BIAB. I'm not knocking it, far from it. I would recommend it to anyone looking to get into AG cheaply, but only for a while.

There are a few things about the process that I don't like, and briefly they are:

- Trying to remove the bag from my particular equipment without significant losses is a real PITA.
- It is very hard to remove all the sugars from the grains, especially with higher gravity beers
- It is not possible to perform step mashes with any ease.

The things that I do like are:

- Less equipment to setup and clean
- No problems with stuck sparges

I hope that I don't discourage any potential BIABers from taking it up, but just understand that there are drawbacks as well, despite what some people are claiming.

cheers, BB

 

[PistolPatch]

Name................. Brews........... are you still BIABing?........Volume
Pistol Patch............. 25................ Yes........................... 575lt Changed to BIAB
FNQ Bunyip............. 33................ Yes........................... 795lt
SpillsMostOfIt........... 11 .................Yes!..........................274lt No Chill/Electric
Hashie......................8..................Yes.............. ............163lt No chill
MaxT........................5..................No.............. .............115lt
PJ............................1..................Will be........................23lt No Chill.
jimmysuperlative.....10..................Yes................. .over 200lt No Chill
Thirstyboy................5.................. Yes.....................app 50lt
Wardhog..................1...................?...............................23lt
Phonos....................2...................Yes............................42l
Partial
Beer Man.................5...................Yes..........................100lt
davekate.................5...................Yes....................app 100lt No Chill all the way!
Adam......................2...................No.............................46l

Blackbock................6...................No............................180lt No Chill
Zizzle......................7...................No..........................161l
No Chill/Electric
Phrak......................6....................Yes.........................175l
No Chill for all
Deaves.................. 6...................No.............................app 140lt ..All Chilled

Zizzle: It's a shame that we couldn't find the cause of that soapy flavour for you. As you saw when you posted the problem in the main thread, it seems that no one else was getting that. I certainly didn't taste it in your APA - my favourite beer of the QLD swap. I was pretty keen to narrow that problem down but we never heard back from you. As for the trub issue, I answered that in the main thread at around the same time as well I'm doing a side by side batch versus BIAB in about three weeks (a kolsch) and will throw the results up in the main thread. The last two I did with Brad, we got 5% higher efficiency on the BIAB. More side by side results are definitley going to be of great value in whether to change methods or not.

Blackbock: Mate thanks so much for doing the BIAB summary stuff. That was a great effort. Interesting stuff on the high gravity beers. Your experience reflects ThirstyBoy's assumptions though he said a similiar decreas would occurr with batch-sparging. (I don't really understand all that stuff by the way but I'll get there.) Removing the bag is a PITA especially without a skyhook! I've just bought one and am habging to use it. I'm also making a new bag in the next few days (Spills sleeping bag design) to make a difference here as well. On the glass clarity, I never noticed a diff between the BIAB and batch but then again I wasn't looking for it so I can't offer any useful info there sorry. Finally, I hope that none of us aren't claiming that there aren't any drawbacks as that would go against the general spirit of things. If you ever catch me doing that, send me a PM and I'll make a correction or explain my reasoning more clearly for whatever I've stated.

Hopefully someone else will test out the high gravity beers alongside a batch-sparger. I'd do it but I can't even handle normal strength beers.


Pat

 

[blackbock]

You are a legend Pat!

 

[Hashie]

Name................. Brews........... are you still BIABing?........Volume
Pistol Patch............. 24................ Yes........................... 552lt Changed to BIAB
FNQ Bunyip............. 33................ Yes........................... 795lt
SpillsMostOfIt........... 11 .................Yes!..........................274lt No Chill/Electric
Hashie......................9..................Yes.............. ............186lt No chill
MaxT........................5..................No.............. .............115lt
PJ............................1..................Will be........................23lt No Chill.
jimmysuperlative.....10..................Yes................. .over 200lt No Chill
Thirstyboy................5.................. Yes.....................app 50lt
Wardhog..................1...................?...............................23lt
Phonos....................2...................Yes............................42l
Partial
Beer Man.................5...................Yes..........................100lt
davekate.................5...................Yes....................app 100lt No Chill all the way!
Adam......................2...................No.............................46l

Blackbock................6...................No............................180lt No Chill
Zizzle......................7...................No..........................161l
No Chill/Electric
Phrak......................6....................Yes.........................175l
No Chill for all
Deaves.................. 6...................No.............................app 140lt ..All Chilled

1 more and I'll be into double figures

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hey All,

Just noticing that we now have a total of 5 brewers who where BIABing but now aren't.

Is there any chance that we can get a list of reasons for the move away from BIAB? I know that MaxT wasn't happy with the Beer (under attenuation I believe) but why have others moved away?

Unhappy with the beer? Why?
Just using BIAB to get started in AG - always planned to move on
Just used BIAB to get started in AG - Seduced away by the shiny 3 vessle systems?
Someone convinced me that I would never be able to make "really" good beer with BIAB, so I changed?

I think it would be useful for those of us still doing it to know why people have moved on. We migth learn a thing or two.

Could the guys who have swapped please let us know? If they aren't reading this thread anymore because they aren't doing BIAB, could someone who knows them please ask them to let us know?

Thanks

Thirsty

 

[blackbock]

Thirsty,

apart from what I wrote above, my primary reason for quitting BIAB was physical limitation of the process.

I prefer to do double batches, and such large amounts of wet grain are physically difficult to manhandle. The bag is under a lot of strain with over 7kg of grain, and trying to effectively extract all of the sugars is also difficult.

I prefer to do a mash out, and I sometimes step mash, and this is also a problem for the equipment I was using.

The beer produced is arguably of similar quality I feel.

I must say though, that the larger volume of liquid holds its heat much better than with a thicker mash. In fact, I was able to hold saccharification temperatures within 1 degree over 60 minutes with no insulation whatsoever (but with lid on kettle.) This is a big plus.


Hope to hear what other guys reasons were...

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

I think you've nailed the issues with the system as I see them, blackbock:

Awkwardness of a big bag of wet grain;
Step mashing; and
Extraction.

I've found solutions to each of those problems which take what I do away from the original BIAB concept of a single vessel and something to shower with.

I have a skyhook - if you're the sort of person who has the kit to take the engine out of their car, you have a good solution to handling the bag. Mine is simpler - I have some rope and sundry climbing gear rigged up to give me a ratcheted lift system.

I use electric immersion heaters and on the one occassion where I tried a step mash, it was simple and easy. I've been persuaded by the people who talk about modern malt modification levels, but more importantly, I'm too forking lazy to bother with that sort of thing and the sorts of things I brew wouldn't benefit much. Perhaps one day I will see that light...

Extraction is probably where I have split from the original single-vessel concept most. I have pots and buckets lying around anyway, so I use them to perform a 'dunk-sparge' which is basically a batch sparge. This works well for me and gives me the efficiencies I am looking for.

The method is clearly not for everyone - until PistolPatch becomes Prime Minister and makes it mandatory for all brewers.

Editted to remove a remark that I cannot justify as well as I'd like...

 

[The King of Spain]

FNQ Bunyip' date='Jun 3 2007, 08:37 AM' post='214377']
Deaves: its courtesy/etiquette and helpfull to use the last posted list to update with ..

'twas not intentional, I thought I had the most recent post. Thank you for your edit

 

[The King of Spain]

Could the guys who have swapped please let us know? If they aren't reading this thread anymore because they aren't doing BIAB, could someone who knows them please ask them to let us know?

Pretty well covered by others but to recap:

(1) Handling grain volume in a bag,
(2) Too much break which was effecting my final efficiency into the fermenter,
(3) Easier to raise the temperature through the mash (as per the Batz method), and
(4) I felt the BIAB method left a residual sweetness, even mashing a low temperatures.

All problems fixed except (4). I am mashing at 64C and getting FGs of 1008 which is pretty consistant with a cooler mash, but still a residual sweetness to my taste (expecially after the first). Ross has suggested I try a different base malt like Golden Promise which is what I plan to do next. Till now for my ales Ive used MO and BB. I use a generous volume of bittering hops like Magnum but does not completely wash over. Maybe I have to use some adjuncts (heresy!!)

BTW I have calobrated my temperature guage.

Cheers

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Pretty well covered by others but to recap:

(1) Handling grain volume in a bag,
(2) Too much break which was effecting my final efficiency into the fermenter,
(3) Easier to raise the temperature through the mash (as per the Batz method), and
(4) I felt the BIAB method left a residual sweetness, even mashing a low temperatures.

All problems fixed except (4). I am mashing at 64C and getting FGs of 1008 which is pretty consistant with a cooler mash, but still a residual sweetness to my taste (expecially after the first). Ross has suggested I try a different base malt like Golden Promise which is what I plan to do next. Till now for my ales Ive used MO and BB. I use a generous volume of bittering hops like Magnum but does not completely wash over. Maybe I have to use some adjuncts (heresy!!)

BTW I have calobrated my temperature guage.

Cheers

Thanks Deaves.

Just so I'm sure I haven't misinterpreted you. You have already changed from BIAB and thats solved your problems, except the residual sweetness?

Just trying to work out if the sweetness (in your case at least) can be definately ascribed to something else apart from the BIAB technique, if its still there when you aren't using BIAB anymore.

Sorry to quizz you, just trying to get some data to chew on.

Thanks blackbock as well.

and Obviously I missed Zizzle and blackbock's posts giving me answers to the questions I asked a couple of posts above where I asked them. I think I missed a page or something. Not paying enough attention.

It seems that physical handling might be the major issue... and really, I think we established earlier in the BIAB thread that it probably wasn't the best idea to go with BIAB if you wanted to do much more than a standard single batch. A skyhook seems to be a nice elegant solution for single batches, dont know if there will ever be one for double batches.

Sweetness -- I strongly suspect that thats an individual brewer thing, maybe one that experience/experimentation ofver a period of time, would fix. I know that I tasted one or two of Spills' beers that were a bit sweet, but then plenty of others that were bone dry and lovely. I certainly haven't had a sweetness issue in my few BIABs. So its solvable within the method at least.

Efficiency/extraction -- well, thats been done to death. I think its well enough established that BIAB and the odd variant like the dunk sparge, give effs from just under to just better than an equivalent batch sparge. If people want better than that, well, I dont get it, but... there is always fly sparging and a lot of practise. I can see it might be a problem if you were to try and do double batches though... that just sounds hard. It doesn't seem to be a major driver at any rate.

Extra Break --- yeah, I've noticed that a bit. Not sure if its a bad thing though. Mine dropped back considerably when I started using a hop bag, but its still more noticable when I do a biab batch. Less effective filtering through the bag than through a grain bed perhaps... Interestingly, one of the guys in the US that tried BIAB was unable to find the swiss voil and had to use a different material, a much tighter weave... he reported very clear wort, but had manual handling issues because the bag took a lot longer to drain and had to be lifted with the included weight of a lot more liquid. His plan was to rig up a skyhook and a pulley. Maybe there is an in between material that would give us a bit clearer wort, but not be too tight a weave and end up waterproof.

Great info. Thanks for the feedback guys

Thirsty

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Pat, I'm going to respond to the thing you said about efficiency and gravity in your last post; in the main BIAB users thread OK. Have look.

 

[ale_snail]

what does BIAB stand for?

 

[Thirsty Boy]

what does BIAB stand for?

Brew in a Bag.

check out this enormous thread for ALL the details. The crux of it is in the first few posts

Or you can look at this one offsite link for a bit of a pictorial description of the process

Its basically a really cheap and easy way to make All Grain beer.

If you have any questions, ask them in the first thread I linked to. Its the main one for the users of BIAB.

Thirsty

 

[The King of Spain]

'Thirsty Boy' date='Jun 5 2007, 11:14 PM' post='215192']


Just so I'm sure I haven't misinterpreted you. You have already changed from BIAB and thats solved your problems, except the residual sweetness?

Just trying to work out if the sweetness (in your case at least) can be definately ascribed to something else apart from the BIAB technique, if its still there when you aren't using BIAB anymore.

Sorry to quizz you, just trying to get some data to chew on.

Thats right Thirsty Boy. I have changed from BIAB to conventional brewing but still have some residual sweetness, even at low FGs (eg 1008). I think this is a grain / recipe thing, expecially when using MO Malt.

I am hoping that a change to Golden Promise will fix this.

Having said all that, the Brews are very good. I think its a bit like doing your own renos. The little things that bother you would not even be detected if you paid for a trady. In other words I think I (we) can get just a little fussy when we are the masters. A good reality check for this happens when a mate gives you a VB at a BBQ so I'm determined not to get to anal about this. 'Tis beer and it is good.


Cheers

Edit to get quotes in

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Thanks Deaves.

You'll have to post some picks of your new rig. It sounds like its working out well for you (well, once you nail the sweetness thing)

Cheers

Thirsty

 

[SpillsMostOfIt]

Name................. Brews........... are you still BIABing?........Volume
Pistol Patch............. 24................ Yes........................... 552lt Changed to BIAB
FNQ Bunyip............. 33................ Yes........................... 795lt
SpillsMostOfIt........... 12 .................Yes!..........................286lt No Chill/Electric
Hashie......................9..................Yes.............. ............186lt No chill
MaxT........................5..................No.............. .............115lt
PJ............................1..................Will be........................23lt No Chill.
jimmysuperlative.....10..................Yes................. .over 200lt No Chill
Thirstyboy................5.................. Yes.....................app 50lt
Wardhog..................1...................?...............................23lt
Phonos....................2...................Yes............................42l
Partial
Beer Man.................5...................Yes..........................100lt
davekate.................5...................Yes....................app 100lt No Chill all the way!
Adam......................2...................No.............................46l

Blackbock................6...................No............................180lt No Chill
Zizzle......................7...................No..........................161l
No Chill/Electric
Phrak......................6....................Yes.........................175l
No Chill for all
Deaves.................. 6...................No.............................app 140lt ..All Chilled

The Half-Sized Batch System makes its debut with an Australian Pale Ale.

 

[PistolPatch]

Name................. Brews........... are you still BIABing?........Volume
Pistol Patch............. 26................ Yes........................... 598lt Changed to BIAB
FNQ Bunyip............. 33................ Yes........................... 795lt
SpillsMostOfIt........... 12 .................Yes!..........................286lt No Chill/Electric
Hashie......................9..................Yes.............. ............186lt No chill
MaxT........................5..................No.............. .............115lt
PJ............................1..................Will be........................23lt No Chill.
jimmysuperlative.....10..................Yes................. .over 200lt No Chill
Thirstyboy................5.................. Yes.....................app 50lt
Wardhog..................1...................?...............................23lt
Phonos....................2...................Yes............................42l
Partial
Beer Man.................5...................Yes..........................100lt
davekate.................5...................Yes....................app 100lt No Chill all the way!
Adam......................2...................No.............................46l

Blackbock................6...................No............................180lt No Chill
Zizzle......................7...................No..........................161l
No Chill/Electric
Phrak......................6....................Yes.........................175l
No Chill for all
Deaves.................. 6...................No.............................app 140lt ..All Chilled

The Half-Sized Batch System makes its debut with an Australian Pale Ale.

Spills sent me some pics of his half-sized system yesterday. It's great and hopefully he'll find time to post them in the main thread. When I become Prime Minister, I'm ditching the baby bonus and bringing in the baby BIAB bonus!

Blackbock and deaves - thanks for the extra info above. On the next batch/BIAB side by side, I'm going to keep a close eye on the clarity of the finished beer. The last time the beer was filtered so next time I'll make sure we do some bottles up as well as the filtered kegs.

Thirsty - Got your top reply in the main thread. I still have some questions but can't work out how to word them yet. Might have a crack in a minute.

I've added 2 more brews to the register that I'll be starting in a few hours. They were meant to be simultaneous ones but my lazy niece keeps doing school-work instead of sewing me up two new bags so I'll have to stagger them. When PM, I'm closing all schools and turning them into microbreweries, bag, kettle and mash tun factories. It's just pathetic this hasn't been done already.

Today is my debut of brewing in a shed instead of a kitchen or bathroom. This means I get to use a skyhook :beerbang:

 

[Kingy]

i got my pully set up in the shed for pulling the bag out , and my kettle is sitting on the burner.
My bag of grain is waiting patiently.

And im slowly getting pissed off bcoz my grain bag is still not made :angry: Hopefully it gets sewn up today.