Belgian Dark Strong With Dates

[jyo]

G'day, brewers. I have done an extensive search and have uncovered very little about brewing with dates. I'm not talking about "Guess what we are doing tonight, darling? Forget that Italian restaurant down the road, we're mashing a Belgian Dark Strong!" Ok, shit joke.

There is some info here- FOUR PEAKS

After some discussion here: Wierd ingredients I have really been thinking about trying a Belgian Dark Strong (a first for me, so this could go either way) loosely based from Brewing Classic Styles with an addition of 500-600 gm of dates. I am thinking of excluding the 450 gms of sugar in place of the dates.

Has anyone tried anything like this? If so, how did it turn out? I have the following planned for next fortnight.
Cheers in advance.

Brown Date Belgian
Belgian Dark Strong Ale

Recipe Specs
----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 8.220
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.080 (P): 19.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.020 (P): 5.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 7.86 %
Colour (SRM): 21.1 (EBC): 41.6
Bitterness (IBU): 30.5 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 73
Boil Time (Minutes): 90

Grain Bill
----------------
6.000 kg Pilsner (72.99%)
1.000 kg Munich I (12.17%)
0.400 kg Special-B (4.87%)
0.350 kg Wheat Malt (4.26%)
0.250 kg Caramunich I (3.04%)
0.220 kg Caraaroma (2.68%)

Hop Bill
----------------
80.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (3.5 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 67C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 20C with Safbrew T-58 or 1762 Belgian Abbey II

Notes
----------------
600 gms dates, finely chopped, boiled for 10 minutes in 1.5 litres of water, strained and liquid added to the boil in the last 15 minutes.

Recipe Generated with BrewMate

 

[Nick JD]

Looks great. Are you after a Rochefort, or a Chimay type dark strong?

With those yeasts you'll not get the esters and phenolics of Chimay Blue. 1214 is the Chimay yeast, I find it vastly different to 1762.

 

[winkle]

G'day, brewers. I have done an extensive search and have uncovered very little about brewing with dates. I'm not talking about "Guess what we are doing tonight, darling? Forget that Italian restaurant down the road, we're mashing a Belgian Dark Strong!" Ok, shit joke.

There is some info here- FOUR PEAKS

After some discussion here: Wierd ingredients I have really been thinking about trying a Belgian Dark Strong (a first for me, so this could go either way) loosely based from Brewing Classic Styles with an addition of 500-600 gm of dates. I am thinking of excluding the 450 gms of sugar in place of the dates.

Has anyone tried anything like this? If so, how did it turn out? I have the following planned for next fortnight.
Cheers in advance.

Brown Date Belgian
Belgian Dark Strong Ale

Recipe Specs


----------------
Batch Size (L): 23.0
Total Grain (kg): 8.220
Total Hops (g): 80.00
Original Gravity (OG): 1.080 (P): 19.3
Final Gravity (FG): 1.020 (P): 5.1
Alcohol by Volume (ABV): 7.86 %
Colour (SRM): 21.1 (EBC): 41.6
Bitterness (IBU): 30.5 (Average - No Chill Adjusted)
Brewhouse Efficiency (%): 73
Boil Time (Minutes): 90

Grain Bill
----------------
6.000 kg Pilsner (72.99%)
1.000 kg Munich I (12.17%)
0.400 kg Special-B (4.87%)
0.350 kg Wheat Malt (4.26%)
0.250 kg Caramunich I (3.04%)
0.220 kg Caraaroma (2.68%)

Hop Bill
----------------
80.0 g Saaz Pellet (3.6% Alpha) @ 60 Minutes (Boil) (3.5 g/L)

Misc Bill
----------------

Single step Infusion at 67C for 90 Minutes.
Fermented at 20C with Safbrew T-58 or 1762 Belgian Abbey II

Notes
----------------
600 gms dates, finely chopped, boiled for 10 minutes in 1.5 litres of water, strained and liquid added to the boil in the last 15 minutes.

Recipe Generated with BrewMate

The sugar is usually in there for the ABV increase and to dry out the beer thus making it more 'drinkable'. Any spicing in a BDS is usually at taste threshold levels so half a kilo of dates I think would ended up tasting just like dates ie. not very complex. If I were brewing it I'd keep them down to 100gm for the first batch to see if it added to the complexity rather than running roughshod over the other flavours. Interesting ingredient, I'd go with W1762.

 

[jyo]

Looks great. Are you after a Rochefort, or a Chimay type dark strong?

With those yeasts you'll not get the esters and phenolics of Chimay Blue. 1214 is the Chimay yeast, I find it vastly different to 1762.

I haven't tried Rochefort yet (I know, sad effort) but Chimay Blue is fantastic.

The sugar is usually in there for the ABV increase and to dry out the beer thus making it more 'drinkable'. Any spicing in a BDS is usually at taste threshold levels so half a kilo of dates I think would ended up tasting just like dates ie. not very complex. If I were brewing it I'd keep them down to 100gm for the first batch to see if it added to the complexity rather than running roughshod over the other flavours. Interesting ingredient, I'd go with W1762.

Cheers, Winkle. I was wondering whether the amount was too high. I might do a mini mash (1 kg of pils malt) and boil with some dates and hops just to get a feel for the flavour it will impart.

 

[Nick JD]

I haven't tried Rochefort yet (I know, sad effort) but Chimay Blue is fantastic.

1214. It's Chimay's yeast. 1762, while a great yeast just doesn't give those big esters. You could make an APA with 1762.

 

[jyo]

1214. It's Chimay's yeast. 1762, while a great yeast just doesn't give those big esters. You could make an APA with 1762.

Looks like I'm leaning towards the 1214 then. Both descriptions of these yeasts sound excellent.

Thanks for the advice, guys.

 

[winkle]

Looks like I'm leaning towards the 1214 then. Both descriptions of these yeasts sound excellent.

Thanks for the advice, guys.

1214 is pretty good, 1762 = more "figs" type esters rather than the expected raisons, plums etc. I've grown to prefer the 1762 but whatever :icon_cheers:

 

[super_simian]

Perhaps rack onto some dates, to not lose the flavour - I'm not convinced they will come through in the boil...

 

[manticle]

I'd avoid boiling fruit as you will give the beverage a stewed or cooked fruit flavour.

Secondary is where I would add any such flavour although you could try some in primary and some more in secondary if you think its needed.

I'm also disappointed that you haven't tried Rochefort - that shit is the shit. Get thee to a bottle dispensary.

 

[jyo]

Perhaps rack onto some dates, to not lose the flavour - I'm not convinced they will come through in the boil...

Cheers, mate. Racking is not something I've tried before, but could be an option.
The missus actually suggested dropping the chosen amount of finely chopped dates (I'm thinking of scaling it down to about 200gms after Winkle's suggestion) into a stocking and hang them into the boil. Decisions...Can't wait to give this a go. I'll update how it turns out.

Edit- just read your post Manticle.
I know, it's a beer that is high on my list and so many rave about it.
Taken on board your advice about stewed fruit. Cheers.

 

[Spoonta]

mate come and see me I have some date syrup that you can have just make beer and add 4 or 5 later

 

[jyo]

mate come and see me I have some date syrup that you can have just make beer and add 4 or 5 later

Thanks, mate. Do you mean to add the syrup in the glass?

 

[keifer33]

Mmm sounds very tasty jyo almost tempted to knock up a small batch myself as an experimental beer.

 

[Tanga]

I don't think boiling will be a problem with dates. Sticky Date Pudding dates are boiled, and it doesn't impart any of those stewed flavours.

 

[jerchappy]

You might find this article interesting-

http://untamedbeer.com/2011/03/25/fermenta...ure-experiment/

about different flavours obtained with high and low temp range in fermenting an Ale with Belgian Ardennes Yeast.

He mentions some date flavours from a cooler fermentation with Belgian Ardennes Yeast. I wonder what sort of temperature would be best with the Chimay yeast?

 

[jyo]

Mmm sounds very tasty jyo almost tempted to knock up a small batch myself as an experimental beer.

Do it! It will still be super young, but we can compare at the case swap, mate.

I don't think boiling will be a problem with dates. Sticky Date Pudding dates are boiled, and it doesn't impart any of those stewed flavours.

I was thinking that too, Tanga. But it may rear its head during fermentation? One way to find out I suppose.

 

[keifer33]

Dont know if it would be that soon jyo as I have no beer on tap at the moment...its very bleek here when you have to think about buying commercial beer again. Will probably be full and able to brew after the case swap so might have to compare early next year.

 

[Gar]

I love the idea, sounds like it would taste spectacular.

Keep us updated on which path you take jyo & how it turns out, I'd love to have a go myself!

 

[ged]

I've done something similar. The main problem with boiling is pectin extraction. You'll need pectinase enzyme, otherwise you'll have big time chill haze. Or drop it in some boiling water for 30 secs, then starsan for 30 secs, then add to secondary.

Ged

 

[jyo]

Cheers for the replies, guys. I meant to update this yesterday.
I emailed the head brewer at FourPeaks with a couple of questions and he was extremely helpful and quite happy if I shared his response on the forum, so here it is:


John,

Weve done several different applications of dates over the years, but the one that would be best for a homebrewer would be to pit the dates and discard them (very astringent), then add the dates to boiling water and breakdown the sugars into solution. Once youre satisfied with the sugar solution let it cool a bit and run it through some cheese cloth to strain it, and wring out the pulp for any remaining syrup. If you think theres more extract in the pulp you could certainly re-do the process with what remains. We found it was better to then boil just the syrup to evaporate away the water (this will change the color, though). You can then treat it at a simple extract and add it to your boiling wort.

As to percentages, Id say youd have to just experiment with the extract that you make. We used medjool dates (very prevalent around here) which are quite large and have a very high sugar content but any date will work.

The dates dont necessarily impart a huge flavor impact since theyre mostly fructose and will be consumed entirely by the yeast. But the cooking process can create some unique caramelized flavors which will carry over.

Good Luck!
(Name removed)

Four Peaks Brewing Co.

Tempe, Arizona


And then this one-

Good looking recipe. Interested in your water. Lots of potassium in dates, could be a plus though, if sulfites are present. Also, try to control your phenols with that yeast. (Wy 1762) We notice a slight, natural phenolic character with the caramelized date syrup, a Belgian strain can sometimes add to it.
And, sure, share if you like.


I am going to make the extract as he has outlined and add at the last 15 minutes of the boil. See how we go! Next weekend for this one.
Cheers.

EDIT- @ Ged- Where can I get pectinase enzyme, mate?