Beersmith2 - How To Customise?

[BakeryHill]

I've searched the forums and found many references to BeerSmith but none answers my question.

I've recently bought the program mainly as I'm about to experiment with different styles, and I'm vaguely familiar with the program as it was used to create my first style by Craft Brewer.

The problem I have is: I've set up my equipment profile so that when I scale the recipes down they should match my equipment (15L stockpot producing 9L BIAB batches). However, when I choose a style and scale it down, the resulting recipe isn't right. For example, the mash in step is 14.6L with a fly sparge of 5.3L - those two amounts exceed the volume of my tun (which I've set at realistic 13L). The pre-boil volume is set at 11L so 14.6 + 5.3 well exceeds 11L even taking into account some grain absorption (4.9kg of grain - another measurement which doesn't look right for a 9L BIAB).

The reason I say the water amounts are wrong (apart from the fact their total exceeds the volume of the tun) is when I compare it to the APA recipe Craft Brewer did up - the mash in amount and fly sparge amount are more realistic (11L and 2L respectively) leaving a post-boil volume of 9.1L. The total grain weight is about 2.5kg which is more realistic than the 4.9kg above. Obviously these amounts were individually customised to meet my requirements by Craft Brewer which might come from experience.

Difficult question to answer without being in front of the program I know, but if anyone has any suggestions I'd be happy to hear them.

 

[keifer33]

There is an option down the bottom to select mash type. you need to make sure you are using one of the 3 setup for BIAB. I use the biab equipment profiles as a guide but they are fairly accurate for the smaller batches.

 

[BakeryHill]

There is an option down the bottom to select mash type. you need to make sure you are using one of the 3 setup for BIAB. I use the biab equipment profiles as a guide but they are fairly accurate for the smaller batches.

I've changed that to BIAB Medium Body but the amounts still look wrong.

I've gone through all possible settings to ensure they meet my setup but I'm still getting weird mash in amounts, etc, as mention in my OP.

Apart from going in and customising every setting (which defeats the purpose of the software) I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. Changing too many settings must begin to upset the balance of the recipe?

 

[keifer33]

The beersmith equipment profile takes into account losses for kettle trub/cooling and fermenter loss so these are the things that could be bumping the overall figures out. if you tip everything into the fermenter after chilling in the sink setting this to say 0.5lts or just 0lt will change the overall amount as the batch size is calced as the amount into the fermenter. The loss to fermenter trub wont really make a huge difference to the amount of initial water. also if your boil isnt as vigorous the evaporation rate may be to high in beersmuth and taking this into account will drop the volume. also check to see if the boil time is the same as the recipe, you may only be able to manage a 60 min boil but beersmith might be set to 90 mins.

 

[sned99]

I've been using the program for quite a while now.I am an all grain brewer doing 50+ litre batches on a three vessel herms system so I'm not sure if I am much help or not.But I have had to set and reset my profiles(especially since changing to version 2) alot until now I have worked it out and I am consistently hitting target volumes and gravities etc.All I can offer is,when you change your settings you must do it through the drop down profile menu or the tabbed menu at the top of the window.If you click on the equipment menu on the recipe design page itself and change it there,it won't overide previous settings and you will end up thinking your settings are what you just saved but they won't be(this goes for all other profile setting too inc mash profiles,fermentation profiles etc),when you go back to the drop down menu you will find that your older settings will still be there,which will stuff around with your recipe.Then once you have your profile where you want it you have to make sure that every recipe you do or want to rescale that you select your equipment profile from the drop down menu first,just to make sure you are using those settings.Hope that helps somewhat????

 

[BakeryHill]

Thanks for the suggestions above - I worked out most of those after playing around with the settings for several hours.

I think I can now see where the problem is - the grain absorption amount for the recipe I was interested in (English County FWH) is 5.5L hence why the fly sparge amount is at 5.7L. It's trying to replace the amount of water absorbed by the grain back into the boil kettle.

This is different to the recipe I've been using for my APA which was made on BeerSmith by Craft Brewer for a 9L BIAB method. In it there's only 2.5kg of grain with an absorption amount of 2.5L and a fly sparge amount of 2.1L

It was the differences between these amounts which threw me but I can see a relationship now - the more grain, the more grain absorption (Doh!).

However, it still raises the question why the APA recipe has only 2.5kgs of grain yet the English County FWH recipe that comes with BeerSmith has nearly 5.5kg of grain for a 9L BIAB recipe. Seems an awful lot of grain! Starting with 11L of water and adding 5.5kg of grain is seriously going to test my 15L capacity stock pot!

In fact most of the recipes that come with BS2 seem to have a lot more grain for a 9L BIAB when scaled down. Perhaps that's the trait of a pale ale and why it gets its name (small amount of light coloured EBC grain giving it the 'pale' appearance?)

[I think I just proved my theory as I looked at the Coopers Pale Ale recipe that comes with BS2 - it has a colour EBC of 9 and has about 2.3kgs of grain. The English County FWH has a colour EBC of 54. Obviously the grain type and its EBC contributes to this as well]

 

[np1962]

Just had a real quick look at this, when you change the equipment and scale batch size that way BS doesn't change the grain amounts at all.
What you need to do after you've made your equipment changes is scale the estimated original gravity using the slider.
For the recipe you are using scale back to 1.045sg. This will change the amount of grain to somewhere less than 2.2kg.
You will also need to scale the IBU's back to 31 as in the original recipe.
I'm pretty sure this will help. No expert in Beersmith though and may be other ways of doing this.
Cheers
Nige

Edit:- There is an easier way. When in the recipe use the scale recipe button on the Home tab, making sure to select the 'match original gravity, colour and bitterness' check box.

 

[stux]

You need to use the Scale Recipe button to change profile and have the recipe scale. If you just change the profile the recipe won't scale properly.

Definitely use the built in BIAB equipment and Mash profiles as a basis for making your equipment profiles. just copy/paste them, then rename

 

[BakeryHill]

Just had a real quick look at this, when you change the equipment and scale batch size that way BS doesn't change the grain amounts at all.
What you need to do after you've made your equipment changes is scale the estimated original gravity using the slider.
For the recipe you are using scale back to 1.045sg. This will change the amount of grain to somewhere less than 2.2kg.
You will also need to scale the IBU's back to 31 as in the original recipe.
I'm pretty sure this will help. No expert in Beersmith though and may be other ways of doing this.
Cheers
Nige

Edit:- There is an easier way. When in the recipe use the scale recipe button on the Home tab, making sure to select the 'match original gravity, colour and bitterness' check box.

Ok - that makes a difference (sliding the scale back) but I wonder why you have to do this manually. I thought the scale recipe function would do this for all values?

I've now changed it the your suggestions and it looks much more realistic (compared to the APA recipe I've been using) however the 'mash details' still look a little off. Mash-in with 4.6L of water then fly sparge with 8.9L - sounds a bit ass about to me. The APA recipe uses mash-in of 11L and fly sparge of 2.1L mainly to make up the pre-boil so the post-boil is around the target volume of 9L. I know I can change the amount of water for each step but I'm wondering what other values need changing in the recipe manually - in my book it defeats the purpose of the software if you have to change values every where. I'm looking to use the software to help me as I'm new and lack the knowledge of what to change and by how much.

 

[np1962]

Not as easy as just scaling, each recipe in the BS database is set up to the original brewers equipment and you will need to change the recipe to suit yours.
OK, so now you need to set up a Mash Profile to suit what you are doing i.e. Small Volume BIAB.
The profile at the moment is assuming standard mash tun type mash and sparge.
I have to go do deliveries now and then a few beers at The Wheaty but I will see if I can do something for you when I have time later or tomorrow morning.
Cheers
Nige

 

[BakeryHill]

I have to go do deliveries now and then a few beers at The Wheaty but I will see if I can do something for you when I have time later or tomorrow morning.
Cheers
Nige

Thank you - the help is much appreciated. I imagine you can export BS files and import them again? If so, send me a PM and I'll give you my email address to swap files.

What I've done this morning is change the mash profile to BIAB Medium Profile and it's changed the mash profile to something more reasonable, though there is no fly sparge step (the mash-in water volume is higher than normal though @ 12.6L)

After running through all the values, they are looking good to me, though a check over wouldn't hurt.

 

[PistolPatch]

Hi there Bakery Hill,

Unfortunately, it is very easy to use BeerSmith2 incorrectly. I've written a guide on the BeerSmtih forum here that shows you how to set BeerSmith up for your equipment. After reading that, you'll see some of the traps though there are more.

As stux mentioned above, you must scale the recipe to suit your equipment using the Scale function. Any other method will put you in dangerous territory. There's also a few minor scaling errors but I believe Brad is working on these now.

I would advise beginners (even traditional brewers) to use and understand the BIABrewer spreadsheet. At the moment it is not very pretty but it works. All the essential BIAB figures used in BeerSmith2 are based on the that spreadsheet as far as possible. (A new BIABrewer spreadsheet is being worked on now which is a lot more powerful, prettier, very accurate and simple to use. It should be available in about 6 weeks.) Once you understand how the spreadsheet works then you will have a good knowledge of how to scale recipes correctly - most programs have errors or are cumbersome when it comes to scaling. I was going to attach the spreadsheet here but I think you really need to study the other info on BIABrewer to use 'The Calculator' correctly. (In future, it won't be necessary to fully register on BIABrewer.info to download the files but for now you will have to.)


Recipe scaling is not as easy as people think - there are many pitfalls so start simple

Cheers,
Pat

P.S. There should be no fly sparge step in BIAB so you've definitely fallen into one of the traps unfortunately.

 

[BakeryHill]

Hi there Bakery Hill,

Unfortunately, it is very easy to use BeerSmith2 incorrectly. I've written a guide on the BeerSmtih forum here that shows you how to set BeerSmith up for your equipment. After reading that, you'll see some of the traps though there are more.

As stux mentioned above, you must scale the recipe to suit your equipment using the Scale function. Any other method will put you in dangerous territory. There's also a few minor scaling errors but I believe Brad is working on these now.

I would advise beginners (even traditional brewers) to use and understand the BIABrewer spreadsheet. At the moment it is not very pretty but it works. All the essential BIAB figures used in BeerSmith2 are based on the that spreadsheet as far as possible. (A new BIABrewer spreadsheet is being worked on now which is a lot more powerful, prettier, very accurate and simple to use. It should be available in about 6 weeks.) Once you understand how the spreadsheet works then you will have a good knowledge of how to scale recipes correctly - most programs have errors or are cumbersome when it comes to scaling. I was going to attach the spreadsheet here but I think you really need to study the other info on BIABrewer to use 'The Calculator' correctly. (In future, it won't be necessary to fully register on BIABrewer.info to download the files but for now you will have to.)


Recipe scaling is not as easy as people think - there are many pitfalls so start simple

Cheers,
Pat

P.S. There should be no fly sparge step in BIAB so you've definitely fallen into one of the traps unfortunately.

Thanks for the info Pat - I'll take a look at the spreadsheet today and use it in conjunction with BS.

Your comment about no fly sparge is interesting - the APA recipe created for me by Craft Brewer has one. The person who set it up was quite experienced so I'm wondering why it's there given your comment?

I must say having been on these forums for several months, there is certainly a wealth of information out there but much of it contradictory. I think it just goes to show how complex brewing can be if it's made to be. I prescribe to the KISS principle where I can.

So why no sparge with BIAB? Surely there is a certain amount of good sugary starch left in the bag that I'd want in the boil?

 

[np1962]

The reason you were directed to do a sparge step, as far as I can tell, is due to the size of your pot.
With 2-2.5kg grain and 13-14L of liquor you aren't going to fit that in a 15L pot. So reserving some of the hot liquor to rinse the grains, not really sparging, is a good way to go given the restrictions your equipment has placed on you.
Nige

 

[BakeryHill]

The reason you were directed to do a sparge step, as far as I can tell, is due to the size of your pot.
With 2-2.5kg grain and 13-14L of liquor you aren't going to fit that in a 15L pot. So reserving some of the hot liquor to rinse the grains, not really sparging, is a good way to go given the restrictions your equipment has placed on you.
Nige

I suspect you're right - I remember the look of concern on their face when they were making the recipe and trying to come to grips with a 9L BIAB in a 15L pot.

 

[PistolPatch]

[For anyone doing pure BIAB (see below) a guide on how to use BeerSmith2 can be found here.]

Hi there Baker's Hill,

Where the confusion lies is that due to the size of your kettle, you are not able to do a pure BIAB. Pure BIAB uses only a single pot and all brewing water is used in the mash. So, in pure BIAB, the mash water also includes the sparge water. This means that the pure BIAB's sparge is 'passive' or 'hidden'. Pure BIAB is what we call a 'full-volume' brewing method. (More info on this can be found in this podcast.)

Many brewers, like yourself have a small kettle and therefore use one or more techniques but all these involve at least one extra vessel. We call this method 'Maxi-BIAB' but, depending on the techniques used, it is nearly always more similiar to traditional batch-sparging. The bag simply replaces a manifold. You can find more info on the definition of Maxi-BIAB here and on the method here.

The term, 'fly-sparging' was probably used accidentally by whoever supplied you the recipe as fly-sparging requires special equipment and a pump. They probably meant to simply say, 'sparge'.

You mention that trying to find info on forums is often contradictory. This does make it very hard for new all-grain brewers. Hopefully the above links etc will help clear things up for you.

Happy reading
Pat