Beersmith And Effeciency Calcs

[Screwtop]

Hope someone can shed some light on this it's bugging me. Have had this Beersmith efficiency result anomaly bugging me for a while now, realising fully that efficiency is not the be all and end all, I am trying to get to the bottom of why this happens. Maybe my settings are incorrect, but I would like to know if anyone else has come across this using Beersmith.

My target volume into the fermenter is always 23L with a pre-boil volume requirement of around 29.67L after allowing for 12.5% evaporation per hour and loss of 2L in trub and the standard 4% cooling loss. Using Powells malts I find I have to lower my brewhouse efficiency to around 60% to gain the correct extract value in OG. However then I am always over in efficiency into the boiler with around 6 points above Beersmiths estimated efficiency into the boiler. If I change my Brewhouse efficiency to 69% I usually achieve the Beersmith estimated efficiency into the boiler, but am under in Beersmiths estimated OG in Brewhouse efficiency based on target volume into the fermenter.

The problem as I see it is in the boil off, here's why. If I set my brewhouse efficiency at 69% and achieve the estimated pre-boil volume, then use the boil off calculator entering the target volume, evaporation percentage per hour, boil time and starting gravity then I most always achieve the OG into the fermenter from the boil off calculator, no problems. However the OG estimate from Beersmith's Recipe View is different. This is because it is also altered when changes are made to the Brewhouse Efficiency setting.

Do other brewers find this using Beersmith? One would imagine that the internal calculations to produce the estimated OG on the Recipe View would be the same as the Boil Off Calculator using the pre-boil results from the Brewhouse Efficiency setting.

Anyway, am interested to hear your opinions regarding this outcome, is it me? Or is it the way in which I am using Beersmith?

Beers

Edit: Sorry about the EFFECIENCY SPELLING in the title, unable to edit it.

 

[AndrewQLD]

Hope someone can shed some light on this it's bugging me. Have had this Beersmith efficiency result anomaly bugging me for a while now, realising fully that efficiency is not the be all and end all, I am trying to get to the bottom of why this happens. Maybe my settings are incorrect, but I would like to know if anyone else has come across this using Beersmith.

My target volume into the fermenter is always 23L with a pre-boil volume requirement of around 29.67L after allowing for 12.5% evaporation per hour and loss of 2L in trub and the standard 4% cooling loss. Using Powells malts I find I have to lower my brewhouse efficiency to around 60% to gain the correct extract value in OG. However then I am always over in efficiency into the boiler with around 6 points above Beersmiths estimated efficiency into the boiler. If I change my Brewhouse efficiency to 69% I usually achieve the Beersmith estimated efficiency into the boiler, but am under in Beersmiths estimated OG in Brewhouse efficiency based on target volume into the fermenter.

The problem as I see it is in the boil off, here's why. If I set my brewhouse efficiency at 69% and achieve the estimated pre-boil volume, then use the boil off calculator entering the target volume, evaporation percentage per hour, boil time and starting gravity then I most always achieve the OG into the fermenter from the boil off calculator, no problems. However the OG estimate from Beersmith's Recipe View is different. This is because it is also altered when changes are made to the Brewhouse Efficiency setting.

Do other brewers find this using Beersmith? One would imagine that the internal calculations to produce the estimated OG on the Recipe View would be the same as the Boil Off Calculator using the pre-boil results from the Brewhouse Efficiency setting.

Anyway, am interested to hear your opinions regarding this outcome, is it me? Or is it the way in which I am using Beersmith?

Beers

Edit: Sorry about the EFFECIENCY SPELLING in the title, unable to edit it.

Screwtop,
From memory the boil off calculator does not take into consideration the 4% shrinkage when the wort is cooled, so if I understand you correctly, if you take this into consideration then the two figures should be the same.
Also have you entered the correct malt specs for the powells malts?
I would be talking to Brad Smith about this if I were you and perhaps send him your recipe and equipement settings and he will sort it out.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Screwtop]

Thanks Andrew, all of the boiler losses are taken into account. The volume remaining after calculating using the Boil Off tool is what remains in the boiler at the end of the boil (after evap) including target volume and trub less cooling loss. Yes to the Powells malt spec, from the Powells spreadsheet. Have never gotten around to doing my own 1lb in 1 quart test on Powells, thats a project for the future. Wanted the forum users to have some input before emailing Brad, to see what their findings are.

Cheers

 

[jayse]

Go to equipment details in recipe view and set lose to trub and chiller to zero then your final volume should equal end of boil size and read the same as batch size in recipe view.
Even better get real brewing software :super:



Alcohol fueled brewtality.
Jayse

 

[Screwtop]

Why Jayse, when I actually loose 2L to Trub and chiller, this should be taken into the calcs as the values are there to be set. When using the Boil Off tool the trub and chiller losses need to be removed as the result is the volume post boil not to the fermenter (batch size).

 

[jayse]

Theres a fault with the software and the lose to trub and chiller must be set to zero or you'll just keep getting confused. No time to explain right now but if i get time latter I'll try or maybe someone who I have explained it to before might like to pipe up. In a nut shell it doesn't matter if your lose 1000L or 1litre it still says the OG will be the same, how could it be if one calc is meant for a brew 999L bigger than the other?

So loses to zero is just the way it has to be or it doesn't work.
Not sure if theres a update that fixes this, if there is I haven't heard of it.



Cheers
Jayse

 

[big d]

If Chiller still frequented this forum he would be able to explain it as he did for me awhile back.Chiller helped out in the setup of Beersmith so is well versed in its applications.

Cheers
Big D

 

[Screwtop]

Theres a fault with the software and the lose to trub and chiller must be set to zero or you'll just keep getting confused. No time to explain right now but if i get time latter I'll try or maybe someone who I have explained it to before might like to pipe up. In a nut shell it doesn't matter if your lose 1000L or 1litre it still says the OG will be the same, how could it be if one calc is meant for a brew 999L bigger than the other?

So loses to zero is just the way it has to be or it doesn't work.
Not sure if theres a update that fixes this, if there is I haven't heard of it.



Cheers
Jayse

Thanks Jayse, so just set the lose to trub and chiller to 0 and add two litres to my batch volume, OK?

 

[PistolPatch]

Firstly Screwtop, I just love it when someone writes something longer than me!

Glad I read your post though as I was having difficulty as well - thought it was just because I was a beginner. There's no way you would expect such a basic mistake in renowned software. Makes me think that my other thoughts on the common software might not be too far off track.

Would love to hear what, 'real brewing software,' jayse can suggest.

Thanks for the heads up.

Pat

 

[AndrewQLD]

Scewtop,
this is what Brad had to say on the trub loss issue, heretrub loss hope this helps

"""The challenge is that the trub loss is not currently included in the estimated gravity calcuation. The estimated gravity uses the brewhouse efficiency to account for "gross" losses in the brewing process (to include trub loss and less than optimal extraction).

Admittedly in the extreme case where you have 15L of trub loss in a 23L batch, your brewhouse efficiency would be absolutely horrible.

Trub loss is used to calculate total water needed, sparge water needed and other water needed calculations. If I were to include the "concentration" and "loss" effects of the boil and trub losses in the original gravity estimate (which is quite possible), I would have to change the definition of brewhouse efficiency - perhaps using lauter extraction efficiency instead.

While this is certainly possible, the program would then not be consistent with the batch brewhouse efficiency used in many books and by other programs.

I have been considering a more detailed efficiency sheet as a pop up from the main recipe - so that the effects of each step on efficiency can be shown in more detail. Here it would be possible to show different types of efficiency and also the effects of boiling and losses on overall efficiency. However, I have not yet had time to implement this fully."""

 

[jayse]

Thanks Jayse, so just set the lose to trub and chiller to 0 and add two litres to my batch volume, OK?

Yeap thats exactly right, have it so the recipe view batch size equals the end of boil size not the amount that goes into the fermentor.

Thanx andrew for finding BS's answer to the question. I never tried looking for his view on it as I don't use it personally. I noticed the problem and just have been addvicing people with what I said earlier and all works fine. Personally I do think it needs changing as this isn't the first and it sure won't be the last time it causes some confusion.



Alcohol fueled brewtality
Jayse

 

[Screwtop]

Thanks to both Andrew and Jayse, I can finally get on with brewing without that annoying difference in estimated gravities. Don't really care about efficiency too much but I do care if I'm unable to hit estimated targets when all of the variables have been spot on.

Cheers and thanks both again

 

[browndog]

I've been having trouble hitting my target gravities with Brewsmith too. My problem is I was hitting the correct preboil gravity but getting nowhere near the predicted post boil gravity, but still getting the correct amount into the fermenter. I've just tried changing the loss to trub to 0 and upping the batch size to compensate. When I did this I noticed that the predicted OG of the brew decreases along with the IBU amount. I don't see how this is possible as I am not adding any more water to the brew. It says to me that Brewsmith disgards the loss to trub amount when calculating the OG and IBUs. Is this correct?

cheers

Browndog

 

[jayse]

I've been having trouble hitting my target gravities with Brewsmith too. My problem is I was hitting the correct preboil gravity but getting nowhere near the predicted post boil gravity, but still getting the correct amount into the fermenter. I've just tried changing the loss to trub to 0 and upping the batch size to compensate. When I did this I noticed that the predicted OG of the brew decreases along with the IBU amount. I don't see how this is possible as I am not adding any more water to the brew. It says to me that Brewsmith disgards the loss to trub amount when calculating the OG and IBUs. Is this correct?

cheers

Browndog

Yeap thats all correct, beersmith does not factor into the recipe the trub and chiller loss thats why I said set it to zero in equipment specs and add the loss to the batch size in recipe view. So the batch size equals end of boil size not the volume into fermentor. Once you use it like that everything starts working proberly and giving you the correct calculations.

Sounds like everything is making sense your end now screwtop, believe me this subject has cause many people the same confusion but once you know whats going on it all falls into line.


Cheers
Jayse

 

[berazafi]

wrong or right, here it is anyway

http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.php?topic=601.0

 

[jayse]

That thread doesn't really get to the real guts of it as brad says its size into the fermentor in one way but says it does not count losses so look at that very very very closely...OK done that? now really its either one or the other yes? It can not be both it either counts losses or it doesn't, if it counts losses than it is the wort into the fermentor as it does not it is the size at the end of the boil :excl:


The best way to use the program no questions asked no stuffing around no doubt what so ever no niggly little tid bit one way or the other is set losses in equipment to zero and not even worry about the equipment settings then set batch size to end of boil size.
That way the effiency is measured as mash effiency and all the calculations are spot on.

The calculations all have to be done for the whole batch of beer at the end of boil etc so it makes perfect sense that it should be set up like this because it doesn't account for the losses in the equipment settings.

Your making a certain amount of wort and your calcs need to be for the whole amount not just work the OG and IBU etc out from what ends up in the fermentor. As far as the effiency goes it is not a true brewhouse effiency like brad smith says because if it was it would include losses.
It doesn't include losses at all so to work proberly you need to set it at end of boil size and therefore it is giving you mash effiency not brewhouse effiency.
If you change the batch size to the amount you get in your fermentor and adjust the effiency untill it lines up with the OG of the actuall full batch size than that will give you your real brewhouse effiency. But the IBU calculations will be higher and wrong set like this.


Boozed broozed and broken boned.
Jayse

 

[Ross]

Thanks Jayse, Andrew etc... have to confess I've been using it wrongly as well, but not feeling so bad seeing as it appears to be a software glitch & not my stupidity . time to update my equipment set up.
Edit: Also explains why i usually bitter (according to Beersmith) too high for style - the net result is i was bittering correctly... Who say's you can't teach an old dog new tricks

cheers Ross

 

[AndrewQLD]

Thanks Jayse, Andrew etc... have to confess I've been using it wrongly as well, but not feeling so bad seeing as it appears to be a software glitch & not my stupidity . time to update my equipment set up.
Edit: Also explains why i usually bitter (according to Beersmith) too high for style - the net result is i was bittering correctly... Who say's you can't teach an old dog new tricks

cheers Ross

Ross, it is not a software glitch both Prmash and beersmith are designed that way, to quote myself from the batch size thread to save my fingers, sorry if you have read this already.

Jayse says it very well, the only efficiency you need to worry about and is of any real use in brewing is the MASH EFFICIENCY, or Efficiency into boiler pre or post boil, that tells you accurately how well you are extracting the good stuff from the grains.
Efficiency into fermenter is your overall system efficiency or equipement eff. and really only tells you how effectively you get your wort from the boiler to the fermenter. Losses to the fermenter can happen any number of ways including tipping over the fermenter and losing 5 lt, if you calculated that then you would only have 60% eff instead of 70% so why bother.
Beersmith and Promash look at how well you extract the sugars from the grains, and fermenter losses are really only a side issue they have tried to cater for.

Cheers
Andrew

cheers
Andrew

 

[Ross]

Ross, it is not a software glitch both Prmash and beersmith are designed that way, to quote myself from the batch size thread to save my fingers, sorry if you have read this already.
cheers
Andrew

Andrew,

I lose 3L to kettle trub etc. By filling in these figures in the Beersmith setup (as it asks you to) it drops the actual IBU's by quite a bit against setting at 0L & upping the batch size. Maybe not a software glitch as such, but poor progamming IMO from both camps - They could at least advise you on this during the setup, unless i missed it??
One plus - my efficiency has rocketed

cheers Ross

 

[Stuster]

One plus - my efficiency has rocketed

Definitely the easiest way to increase efficiency. :super: