Batch Sparging

[mckenry]

Hi All,
I have done a huge amount of reading on this and the more I read, the more variations there seem to be. :unsure:
A lot of the articles written on this topic go way back. So I just want some opinions on which way I should go.

As I understand it - and this is how I have done mine so far - this is A method:

1. After mash and recycling I drain my mash tun completely - not at full bore, about half.
2. Add half my sparge water at about 78C and let sit for 10mins
3. Recycle again and drain that completely - this time at full bore.
4. Add remainder of sparge water (still close to 78C) and let sit for another 10 mins
5. Recycle and drain completely, again at full bore.

The questions I have after reading others methods (and these may be outdated due to better ways) are as follows:
Q1. Should I drain mash completely before adding any sparge water? Have heard this will drop temp too far in grain bed.
Q2. Should I just add all the sparge water at once? My tun is 60L so can do. This would be quicker, but is it advisable?
Q3. Should I mix the grain up after adding the half (or all as the case may be) sparge water?
Q4. If I do mix the grain up, what is the point of adding the sparge water so carefully in the first place?
Q5. If I do mix the grain up, is it just the top half or all of it? These are some of the things some say do, some say dont. So basically just after advise on what may be the accept (easiest) method.

I should add, I dont HAVE to go for the easiest if something a little more complicated give far better efficiency and I have a beerbelly falsie.
Thanks, mckenry.

 

[Steve]

Hi All,
I have done a huge amount of reading on this and the more I read, the more variations there seem to be. :unsure:
A lot of the articles written on this topic go way back. So I just want some opinions on which way I should go.

As I understand it - and this is how I have done mine so far - this is A method:

1. After mash and recycling I drain my mash tun completely - not at full bore, about half.
2. Add half my sparge water at about 78C and let sit for 10mins
3. Recycle again and drain that completely - this time at full bore.
4. Add remainder of sparge water (still close to 78C) and let sit for another 10 mins
5. Recycle and drain completely, again at full bore.

The questions I have after reading others methods (and these may be outdated due to better ways) are as follows:
Q1. Should I drain mash completely before adding any sparge water? Have heard this will drop temp too far in grain bed.

Q2. Should I just add all the sparge water at once? My tun is 60L so can do. This would be quicker, but is it advisable?

Q3. Should I mix the grain up after adding the half (or all as the case may be) sparge water?

Q4. If I do mix the grain up, what is the point of adding the sparge water so carefully in the first place?


Q5. If I do mix the grain up, is it just the top half or all of it? These are some of the things some say do, some say dont. So basically just after advise on what may be the accept (easiest) method.

I should add, I dont HAVE to go for the easiest if something a little more complicated give far better efficiency and I have a beerbelly falsie.
Thanks, mckenry.

The questions I have after reading others methods (and these may be outdated due to better ways) are as follows:
Q1. Should I drain mash completely before adding any sparge water? Have heard this will drop temp too far in grain bed.

A. This is what I do

Q2. Should I just add all the sparge water at once? My tun is 60L so can do. This would be quicker, but is it advisable?

A. This is what I do, never heard of anyone adding it in two stages.

Q3. Should I mix the grain up after adding the half (or all as the case may be) sparge water?

A. This is what I do, thoroughly.

Q4. If I do mix the grain up, what is the point of adding the sparge water so carefully in the first place?

A. You dont need to add sparge water carefully until you are re-cycling. Pour the re-cycled wort onto a plastic container lid to displace the flow. This is when you dont want to disturb the grain bed.

Q5. If I do mix the grain up, is it just the top half or all of it? These are some of the things some say do, some say dont. So basically just after advise on what may be the accept (easiest) method.

A. I mix it all up thoroughly

when draining dont to it at full bore - just half

 

[Ross]

Hi McKenry,

I've found the best method for my system as follows.

Leave mash water in the tun & add enough "boiling" (or very close) water so that you'll get 2 equal runoff's into the kettle.
E.G. For a preboil volume of 32L assuming 5 kilos grain & mashed with 14L of water - You would need to add approx 7L of boiling water (grain absorbs approx 1L/kg). This will give you 9L + 7L = 16L.

1. After adding, give a good stir & then recirculate until reasonably clear, by pouring a couple of litres off into a jug & carefully adding back into the top of the mash tun. Then open up the valve and fill your kettle. You can go as fast as you like, but too fast may cause the grain to compact & stop the flow - use trial & error - slower is safer.
2. Once drained, add another 16L to the mash tun of approx 90C water & repeat step 1.

This will give you max water/grain ratio for both mixings, which makes dissolving the sugars into the water easier & will give you an overall temp of approx 78C. If you add water at 78c the mashout will be too cool & you will loose efficiency.

You can do as one complete mash out with all the water - This will result in lower efficiency, but will work fine.


cheers Ross

 

[Cortez The Killer]

McKenry

In the method you describe you are draining the mash tun 3 times - this can help to raise efficiencies.

Have a read of this article http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title...arging_Analysis

The main things to take away are that best efficiencies are to be had when you drain in equal volumes and that increased drainings will also increase efficiencies

Though the time factor of each draining must be balanced against the extra gravity points to be had

I drain the mash tun twice and find that this is adequate

Also to note is that you'll need to bring your sparge water to near boiling to raise the grain bed temps to 78*C when sparging

Mixing/stirring is important to assist in dissolving sugars

Drain as fast as you like - but not too fast as to compact the grain bed

A basic outline of the steps I under take is as follows

1) Dump in mash water, add grains - stir until desired mashed temp is achieved and close tun
2) After 60 mins open tun, stir, recirculate, and drain
3) Add sparge water at near boiling and stir
4) Recirculate and drain

Cheers

 

[Benniee]

Also to note is that you'll need to bring your sparge water to near boiling to raise the grain bed temps to 78*C when sparging

Just be careful with this one - I believe the temperature of the sparge water will be very system dependent. In my first few AG batches with my Esky+braid system adding near boiling water sent my temps into the mid to high 80's. Too high.

I now heat my sparge water to around 80-85 degrees and end up with temps that I'm after for the sparge.

Efficiency on my system is pretty stable around 75% unless I really mess something up

Benniee

 

[SJW]

Hi McKenry,

I've found the best method for my system as follows.

Leave mash water in the tun & add enough "boiling" (or very close) water so that you'll get 2 equal runoff's into the kettle.
E.G. For a preboil volume of 32L assuming 5 kilos grain & mashed with 14L of water - You would need to add approx 7L of boiling water (grain absorbs approx 1L/kg). This will give you 9L + 7L = 16L.

1. After adding, give a good stir & then recirculate until reasonably clear, by pouring a couple of litres off into a jug & carefully adding back into the top of the mash tun. Then open up the valve and fill your kettle. You can go as fast as you like, but too fast may cause the grain to compact & stop the flow - use trial & error - slower is safer.
2. Once drained, add another 16L to the mash tun of approx 90C water & repeat step 1.

This will give you max water/grain ratio for both mixings, which makes dissolving the sugars into the water easier & will give you an overall temp of approx 78C. If you add water at 78c the mashout will be too cool & you will loose efficiency.

You can do as one complete mash out with all the water - This will result in lower efficiency, but will work fine.


cheers Ross

+1
Thats about what I do. There is also no need to wait 10mins after adding the water, just mix and re-circ. And I never drain with the pump on and the valves open FULL BORE, I always have the mash just draining at a steady pace.
But from what I have read and found, if you have a fairly thick mash its good to do a mash out, even if it does not get the temp right up to 76 deg C, its good to thin the mash for the first drain. The 2 equel spages after that should get you the best eff.

Steve

 

[Steve]

There is also no need to wait 10mins after adding the water, just mix and re-circ.

How come? I leave mine for 10-15 mins - cant remember where I read it. Why isnt it necessary?

 

[threeheads]

How come? I leave mine for 10-15 mins - cant remember where I read it. Why isnt it necessary?

Most people would leave it this time to give the grain bed time to settle, so as not to end up with a stuck sparge. You dont need to leave it 10-15 minutes as long as the sparge water is of high enough temps to act as a mash out and stop the sugar conversion.

Personally I semi fly sparge. i have a large plastic container that sits over the top of my tun with about 100 small holes drilled in it. this distributes the water evenly over the grain bed.
I recirculate the first wort runnings until it is clear, i then slow my out flow into the kettle until it is running at about 800ml per minute.
i also run my HLT over the plastic container at the same rate. I still always measure the water in the kettle to make sure i dont over sparge and extract tanins from the grain, but i find it rinses the grains much more thoroughly (IMO) and for my system.

I always did 2 batch sparging and my efficiency was about 65-70%. I am consistently up around the 85% now with my version of a fly sparge.

I hope i did not confuse the issue for you.

 

[haysie]

Hi 3heads, What plastic thingy are you using to semi fly? what temps are you running the sparge water into it? at what stage do you start your fly, i.e just before, end of first runnings? do you mash out? You say measure the water? is this quantity or measuring via plato etc? I have done something similar in the past, didnt have much success hence the ?`s. How far also is the bucket off the grainbed? Thanks.

 

[buttersd70]

Most people would leave it this time to give the grain bed time to settle, so as not to end up with a stuck sparge.

And to give the temperature time to stabalise.

 

[Ross]

Most people would leave it this time to give the grain bed time to settle, so as not to end up with a stuck sparge. You dont need to leave it 10-15 minutes as long as the sparge water is of high enough temps to act as a mash out and stop the sugar conversion.

Personally I semi fly sparge. i have a large plastic container that sits over the top of my tun with about 100 small holes drilled in it. this distributes the water evenly over the grain bed.
I recirculate the first wort runnings until it is clear, i then slow my out flow into the kettle until it is running at about 800ml per minute.
i also run my HLT over the plastic container at the same rate. I still always measure the water in the kettle to make sure i dont over sparge and extract tanins from the grain, but i find it rinses the grains much more thoroughly (IMO) and for my system.

I always did 2 batch sparging and my efficiency was about 65-70%. I am consistently up around the 85% now with my version of a fly sparge.

I hope i did not confuse the issue for you.

A little confused - how is this a semi fly sparge, what are you doing different? - sounds like a normal fly sparge to me.

I get a consistant 85% on a normal 5%alc brew, batch sparging.

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I'll throw in a vote for just one single run-off to your kettle - you lose maybe 3-5% efficiency, but if your mashtun is big enough to do it... it makes a surprising difference to the ease of your brew day. Here's my technique.

*Calculate the total amount of water you will need... ie: your desired pre-boil kettle volume + the amount of water that will be absorbed by the grain (approx 1L/kg) + your mash tun deadspace
* Mash with however much of that water you think is right. The remainder is your sparge water.
* Ask promash or Beersmith to work out how hot you need to make that amount of sparge water, in order to get your total mash temperature up to 77C
* Heat it up to that temp & at the end of your mash time... dump it in there. No need to be gentle.
* Stir it all up thoroughly, then give it a minute or two for the grain to settle back to the bottom
* Open up your tap a little and re-circulate till there aren't any chunky bits. Depending on what kind of false bottom/manifold your are using it could take as little as a litre or two to clear up reasonably.
* Drain to your kettle as fast as it will go without getting stuck... start slow and open the valve up over a minute or two
* After a few tries, you should get your pre-boil volume at just the point where the wort stops coming out of the tun

I usually manage 73-78% mash efficiency with this... I got a little more than that when I was doing two equal runoffs

I reckon you take the easiest option (which I think is this one) first... then once you get the hang of things... try out all the different ways of sparging a few times. As Threeheads demonstrates.. even fly sparging can be done without too much equipment or fuss. Every single one of these ways works... its just a matter of how well and how easily they work - for you.

TB

 

[schooey]

I asked these same questions (or similar) not long ago. If you do a search on batch sparging, there is a really good thread with pictures that was started by PistolPatch that's worth reading, similar to what Ross has posted.

I ended up going with a three vessel, single level, HERMS in the HLT system. I set mine up so I can mash comfortably at 3L/kg. When mashing, I recirc very slowly through the grain bed for desired timeframe to maintain the temp. Then if mashing out, I change the temp on the HERMS PID and it comes up to temp at the rate of about 1 degree/min. Then drain precalced amount from promash to the kettle, minus one to two litres to ensure I dont pull any grain from the bed with the pump.

I then underlet my desired amount of sparge water, at the correct temp to achieve the desired sparge temp in the mash, into the tun, refloat the mash, and begin to recirc through the HERMS for 10 mins until all temps equalise and then I just crack the kettle valve so that I am recircing and draining to the kettle at the same time. When I get down to the last 4-5 litres, I turn off the recirc and drain the last off until I hit the desired volume to the kettle.

I guess it's kinda batch recirculating or an underlet fly hybrid sparge....:blink: Whatever you want to call it, it gave me efficiencies in the high 80's for the first time ever, is as simple as turning on three or four taps and flicking a switch, and has cut an hour off a 50L batch for me. Not to mention having to lift hot vessels of sparge water about or stand on ladders to fill HLT's etc etc

 

[haysie]

Is this method >> single sparge?

edit.. batch sparge

 

[mckenry]

Thanks to all that replied. Especially Tony for his priv. messages - Very helpful. As expected, there are varying ways to go about the sparge. I guess I'll try them all and see which one works best for me & my system.
Isnt there a saying - 'Ask 3 brewers a question......'
I think I'll try these two methods first as they seem easiest for a novice.

Method 1
Mash in with 3L/kg for 60mins
Recirculate and drain tun
Add all remaining sparge water at temp determined by beersmith
Stir grain & leave to sit for 10 mins
Recirculate and drain tun to hopefully meet expected pre boil volume to kettle.

What sparge method is this called exactly? Single Batch Sparge?

Method 2
Mash in with 3L/kg for 60mins
Add near boiling water (temp determined by beersmith) without draining tun
Stir grain & leave to sit for 10 mins
Recirculate and drain tun to hopefully meet expected pre boil volume to kettle.

What method is this called? Single batch with mash out??

Thanks again all. Your help is much appreciated. :icon_cheers:
mckenry

 

[buttersd70]

method 1 is single batch sparge (aka batch sparge, no mash out, aka batch sparge 1 round and various other terms)
method 2 commonly refferd to as no sparge.

But don't totally discount a 3rd option, which is

1. Mash in with 3L/kg for 60mins
2. Add near boiling water (temp determined by beersmith) without draining tun to give water of (target boil volume/2) + weight of grain
3. Stir grain & leave to sit for 10 mins
4. Recirculate and drain tun to hopefully meet half of expected pre boil volume to kettle.
5. Add near boiling water (temp determined by beersmith)....half your target boil volume.
6. Stir grain & leave to sit for 10 mins
7. Recirculate and drain tun to hopefully meet expected pre boil volume to kettle.

which is a batch sparge with mash out and equal runnings, which is what Ross was talking about. If you are not comfortable with that, do method 1 to get your feet wet, get comfortable, and your method down pat. But meth 3 has an added flexability....if, in step 2, the water is not as hot, and instead of taking it to 78C, you take it to a higher temp in the sacch range, it then becomes a stepped mash instead of a mashout.

 

[mckenry]

method 1 is single batch sparge (aka batch sparge, no mash out, aka batch sparge 1 round and various other terms)
method 2 commonly refferd to as no sparge.

Thanks butters,
Another quick question. I mix all my grain when adding sparge water. Why do some posts say to only mix the top half? Cant find a satisfactory explanation, but I am at work, so searching pages & pages is a bit hard at the moment

 

[mckenry]

Sorry to bump this back up to the top - just would like to know before I leave work.

Another quick question. I mix all my grain when adding sparge water. Why do some posts say to only mix the top half? Cant find a satisfactory explanation, but I am at work, so searching pages & pages is a bit hard at the moment

 

[Steve]

Sorry to bump this back up to the top - just would like to know before I leave work.

Another quick question. I mix all my grain when adding sparge water. Why do some posts say to only mix the top half? Cant find a satisfactory explanation, but I am at work, so searching pages & pages is a bit hard at the moment

Ive never heard of anyone only mixing the top half nor have seen any posts mentioning it.
Cheers
Steve

 

[raven19]

Sorry to bump this back up to the top - just would like to know before I leave work.

Another quick question. I mix all my grain when adding sparge water. Why do some posts say to only mix the top half? Cant find a satisfactory explanation, but I am at work, so searching pages & pages is a bit hard at the moment

Sounds wierd to me to. Mix the lot.

On second thought, it may be referring to not disturbing a deep grain bed that has already started to filter the wort, as such the lower part of your grain bed is quite nicely compacted and doing a good job filtering. And it may be in reference to once you are taking your runnings off at the same time.

Its all a little unusual though, even if it was in reference to fly sparging you would not be looking to disturb the grain bed.

Back to line 1, Mix the lot.

Cheers.