Barrels

[TimT]

Next year I'm sorely tempted by the prospect of getting a barrel for brewing purposes. As I see it it would be great to age special/long-maturing brews in, to add tannins, flavours, and a special character to wines and beers, including possibly a smokey flavour (if I go with a barrel that's been charred inside). And it would also be kinda cool to have my own barrel - yes, I am that shallow.

On the other hand, there'd be drawbacks: would it be difficult to keep infections out of a barrel? Are they affected by weather (for instance, drastic temperature changes like we sometimes have here in Melbourne - going to be 40 degrees today, in two days it'll be down to maximum 22 degrees). It would have to be a 25 litre/5 gallon barrel I think as it just wouldn't be worth it for a tiny 1-5 litre barrel - though that would make cleaning more difficult too. (You can't just splash several litres worth of spirits around in a barrel like that to disinfect it. Or you can.... but it would be hell expensivde).

Be interested in thoughts other folks have: go with a barrel or not?

 

[toncils]

I've got a couple. If you ferment your beer in another chamber first then sanitation isn't a huge issue- your beer will kill most of the germs. Between uses you could fill it with sodium met, which should work alright to sanitise.

There is something awesome about throwing it in a barrel, but you could just put oak staves in your keg?

 

[TimT]

Interesting Toncils. Thanks. So I was thinking a barrel would be perfect for longer maturing, higher-strength wines and beers, and if I did get one I guess I'd try not to keep it empty for long between brews. Your advice about fermenting the beer in another chamber first seems good.

I'm also wondering if there's any issues using the barrel for widely differing brews - for instance, a mead, then a porter, then a saison, then a parsnip wine (for instance). Would it be wise just to reserve a barrel for certain types of brews, or would the mingling of flavours tend to add better character to the final product?

 

[Kodos]

If you want Oak flavour, IMHO oak cubes are the way to go. You could char them with a blowtorch if you wanted that character, or soak them in something (port, spirit, wine, whatever) if you want that character. I've tried soaking 5L of a batch on oak cubes and then blending back with the original beer if the oak character is too strong and had great success (in my opinion).

If you don't want to intentionally sour the beer, it pretty much has to be an ex-spirit barrel. Matt Brynildson from Firestone Walker in the US (and a legend in the game) spoke about barrel aging at last year's ANHC and basically said wine barrels come with bacteria in them, and you'll never get that out. It's just the nature of winemaking. That, however, can be a good thing if you're doing a sour beer. If you have a distillery nearby, find out what they do with their old barrels, otherwise it's ex-wine barrels. New barrels cost a bomb.

A Canberra Brewers member (Duffbowl) organised a bulk buy of 100L barrels a while back after a pretty extensive search. 100L seemed to be the most economically viable, and suitable for our purposes. 25L will give you too much barrel, and potentially too much oxidation, larger than 100L is too hard to fill for most brewers, and then you're left with heaps of beer that you may not want all of. Some pros reckon 100L is too small, and you risk too much oak contact and thus too much oxidation - but seeing others' experience suggests this might not be the case.

Most of the brewers with these barrels fermented 80ish litres of beer with a normal yeast in standard fermenters, then added those beers, and 20L of fresh wort, to the barrel with some bugs (Roeselare blend or similar). They then let it sit for a while, and when it's tasting about right, they fill a keg from the barrel and replace the beer with fresh wort. This is often referred to as a solera technique. Each keg had a slightly different flavour depending on what went in it.

Club members have made some stunning sour beers this way (including 1st place at the Nationals in the specialty category this year).

Brewers here found that cleaning with something other than hot water risked leaving too much chemical behind in the barrel, (Brendan Farris at Feral Brewing even said chlorinated municipal water could cause problems). While I agree with toncils that fermented beer will be safer than fermenting in the barrel, it won't kill germs, but it might hold them off for a bit. If you're storing the beer for any period of time, those bugs will eventually take over. How quickly, and which bugs will be nearly impossible to predict.

I was really tempted to get in on the order - but quickly realised I didn't have time to brew 100L of the same beer, and didn't want to drink that much sour beer - instead I'm happy to sample others' efforts!

If you were interested in putting different beverages in it, you'd have to go from a Saison to a mead, to a porter, as the flavours are likely to get more complex over time. Remember tho' that the bacterial load will grow over time as well.

 

[TimT]

Interesting especially to hear about the solera technique. Especially with the big barrels I imagine you could get very creative with this sort of thing. Yeah, over 25 litres is not really in my capacity anytime soon, if ever.

 

[Not For Horses]

There's a guy in Tas who imports spirit barrels and cuts and resizes them to almost anything you want.
I can hunt up his details if anyone is interested. Not sure much freight would be to the mainland though.

 

[TimT]

Love it if you could chase up his details, Not For Horses. Of course here in Melbourne we're just on the other side of the Puddle (or whatever it's called) so there's always a bit of freight between us and the Apple Isle. Might have a look round myself - it's only a subject I've started looking into recently.

 

[toncils]

Got mine from http://barrelsonline.com - does the trick, comes in plenty of different sizes. (if you don't mind your barrel being made by Mexican slaves).

Keep in mind, once you get an infection in a barrel you'll have a tough time getting rid of it. Re-charring may be the only way.

Staves are definitely safer and easier.

 

[QldKev]

Got mine from http://barrelsonline.com - does the trick, comes in plenty of different sizes. (if you don't mind your barrel being made by Mexican slaves).

Keep in mind, once you get an infection in a barrel you'll have a tough time getting rid of it. Re-charring may be the only way.

Staves are definitely safer and easier.

How much was postage?

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

Oak domino's may be worth a try

 

[toncils]

Got two 20l American Oak for 90 each, shipping was 230 for both.

 

[///]

A quick scan brings the question if using then for aging or fermenting

I did about 600l of our porter into rum barrels for 4 months over winter and result was great. As they were spirit barrels they beer on recommendation went straight in

After a week the flavour was intense, over 4 months a white Pelicle formed and the beer too on sherry and wines notes indicative if oxidation

I back blended with 50% fresh beer and it sold like hot cakes.

Have yet to ferment but Doc has championed the cause on both aging and fermenting in wood. Doc was the one who helped curate the beer I did and advised on the handling

I also did a 35l scotch ale and used bourbon chunks - flavour was there in a week and it was bottled off for xmass chrissie presents. Used 2 bags from the hb shop, was plenty of flavour.

In regards to fermenting in barrel, well the bugs are part of the adventure. Hold on and ride the wave!

 

[TimT]

Coming back to this older thread now - thanks for the link, Toncils! Worth looking at, anyway!

 

[bmarshall]

Ferment and aging in wine or spirit barrels sounds like a great idea.
Would starting the ferment in a fv for half or one day then transfer to the barrel reduce infection. Since the yeast has good growth to beat anything else in there.
I like the idea of a ipa or dipa in port barrel! My favorites in one.
Could it be sanitised with pure ethanol?