Aussie Brewer Disputes German Beer Law?

[clean brewer]

Hey all,

Just come across this on 9MSN, I really cant believe what he says about Cane Sugar in beers :angry: , all natural???

We can still make thirst quenching beers without cane sugar, why cant they?? Thats right, saving $$$ and making $$$... :unsure:

Bloody Chuck and his love of Cane Sugar

:icon_cheers: CB

Oh yeh, and I was recently shocked to read that Tooheys Old contained 20-30% Sugar also..

 

[buttersd70]

But while Ms Pavoni pointed out that German beer contains less calories than full cream milk or grape juice, Mr Hahn said it was harder to drink Bavarian beers in large amounts because they are richer in flavour.

"With richer tasting beer you don’t drink as much," he said.

so, in reality, he is saying "Our beer isn't as good in comparison, but it's easier to drink because it's thin, watery, and has bugger all flavour, and lets face it, your average aussie swill drinker just wants to get off his face.".........mmm, the marketing writes itself. :blink:

 

[jonocarroll]

In the original text, the only ingredients that could be used in the production of beer were water, barley, and hops. The law also set the price of beer at 1-2 Pfennig per Ma. The Reinheitsgebot is no longer part of German law: it has been replaced by the Provisional German Beer Law (Vorlufiges Deutsches Biergesetz (Provisional German Beer-law of 1993)), which allows constituent components prohibited in the Reinheitsgebot, such as wheat malt and ***cane sugar***, but which no longer allows unmalted barley.

(My emphasis). Any anyway...

The Reinheitsgebot was introduced in part to prevent price competition with bakers for wheat and rye. The restriction of grains to barley was meant to ensure the availability of sufficient amounts of affordable bread, as the more valuable wheat and rye were reserved for use by bakers. Today many Bavarian beers are again brewed using wheat and are thus no longer compliant with the Reinheitsgebot.

Next time someone tells you that they only want Reinheitsgebot beers, tell them to try paying 1-2 Pfennig per Ma for them at todays rates!!! Also, I'll bet you dollars to donuts that I can make a terrible Reinheitsgebot beer.

 

[adraine]

so, in reality, he is saying "Our beer isn't as good in comparison, but it's easier to drink because it's thin, watery, and has bugger all flavour, and lets face it, your average aussie swill drinker just wants to get off his face.".........mmm, the marketing writes itself. :blink:

So true

I lived in germany for 3 years and beer is a culture and way of life over there. something that is celebrated (with lots of festivals). Beer here is expensive and ordinary IMO.

"It's more refreshing on a hot day than German beers it's brewed for our climate." = more money in my pocket cause i save money on ingerdients

 

[clean brewer]

so, in reality, he is saying "Our beer isn't as good in comparison, but it's easier to drink because it's thin, watery, and has bugger all flavour, and lets face it, your average aussie swill drinker just wants to get off his face.".........mmm, the marketing writes itself. :blink:

Yes, thats right, the quicker you can smash it, the more you will buy, of course its marketing.. And they have it over alot of people that are quite "special :blink: "

I can still hook right into my beers that dont contain any sugar.. :chug:

 

[Kai]

Hey all,

Just come across this on 9MSN, I really cant believe what he says about Cane Sugar in beers :angry: , all natural???

We can still make thirst quenching beers without cane sugar, why cant they?? Thats right, saving $$$ and making $$$... :unsure:

Bloody Chuck and his love of Cane Sugar

:icon_cheers: CB

Oh yeh, and I was recently shocked to read that Tooheys Old contained 20-30% Sugar also..

What do you think of toohey's old? I still enjoy it, it sits on the reserves list when I'm at a random pub or bottlo. With regards to sugar, it's still as "natural" as rice, corn or any other non-malt adjunct. I reckon it deserves its place in beer as much as any other natural ingedient.

 

[clean brewer]

What do you think of toohey's old? I still enjoy it, it sits on the reserves list when I'm at a random pub or bottlo. With regards to sugar, it's still as "natural" as rice, corn or any other non-malt adjunct. I reckon it deserves its place in beer as much as any other natural ingedient.

Well, now if I go to a pub(in Hervey Bay), I look for Tooheys Old as all the rest crap generally.. Thats what I mean, I was shocked that it had that much sugar... I guess, but dont you think 30% is excessive??

 

[Kai]

Well, now if I go to a pub(in Hervey Bay), I look for Tooheys Old as all the rest crap generally.. Thats what I mean, I was shocked that it had that much sugar... I guess, but dont you think 30% is excessive??

It is a pantsload of sugar, I agree. However, drinking tooheys old is still a lot more preferable than, say, tooheys new in my book. It's still a palatable beer.

 

[Weizguy]

Well, now if I go to a pub(in Hervey Bay), I look for Tooheys Old as all the rest crap generally.. Thats what I mean, I was shocked that it had that much sugar... I guess, but dont you think 30% is excessive??

Unfortunately, many Oz breweries see 30% as not excessive, but as "AVERAGE".

That's how they got the body out of the beer, and keep the alcohol up.

Lack of hop character and aroma are also a defining characteristic of the Oz lager (dark or pale).

My 2 cents, my friends.
Les

 

[rich_lamb]

Hang on, didn't Chuck just suggest that (because of it's lack of flavour, body, richness, whatever) you can consume MORE aussie beer. But in the next breath he says the alcohol content is the same.

Sooo... the intent is we drink loads more alcohol here? Chuck doesn't see any issue there I guess.

 

[manticle]

Like most little articles, my guess is that's taken out of context.

Essentially German purity law says beer = this (malt water hops yeast) and that's it and all it will be for eternity.

Australian brewer man says " not necessarily. Other things can be added, depending on where the beer is from, what climate etc etc. Not so bad.

Sure there's some things there I disagree with but unless you hear the entire interview or know the context, it's hard to say. The belgians use all manner of wacky stuff in their beers and they get celebrated (and rightly) all over the place. Saying cane sugar is not necessarily bad is not necessarily bad.

Disclaimer: I am not in any way suggesting that ANY Australian beer competes favourably with a trappists or fine german lager or Pils, just that the apparent stupidity described and subsequent uproar stimulated, may simply be out of context, online article, typicality, rubbish.

Or something.

 

[kook]

The reinheitsgebot is a load of crap h34r:

It is well known that the law had nothing to do with purity, but price protection. There are many reinheitsgebot "compliant" beers out there that in my opinion are simply crap.

It killed off several great German beer styles - though some have been resurrected in recent years. Beers like Weissebiers, Berliner Weisse, Roggenbier, Gose etc were all effectively outlawed.


"But Chuck Hahn from Sydney's Malt Shovel Brewery said while the Purity Law had succeeded in ensuring German beer stayed very pure, a good beer did not need to be limited to those four main ingredients." - I could not agree more.

Put whatever you like in your beer - it's YOUR beer If you want to stick to 4 ingredients, go for it. But you're limiting yourself from trying a range of wonderful beers out there that exist with other perfectly natural ingredients.

 

[Bribie G]

Personally I have no problem with using adjuncts such as sugar. I've just pitched an experimental brew of Australian Bulimba-style Gold Top Draught, which after the takeover became Queensland's Carlton Draught brewed in Brisbane up till the 1980s, when production was moved to Yatala. At about the same time Carlton made the huge mistake of putting Fosters on tap (failure) and withdrawing Carlton Draught as such. At that time they also started invading Queensland with VB.

Then later they introduced Carlton Draught again with the red label. It sort of struggled for a while then went out of fashion again.

Then eventually they did another makeover "Brewery Fresh" "Made from Beer" etc and once again launched it, with far better results, as CD has now become reestablished in nearly every pub. Of course the modern CD is nothing remotely like the fairly bitter, very blonde ex-Bulimba brew we used to get in Brisbane and which IMHO beat the crapper out of XXXX at that time.

I'd like to taste that again so have made a fairly bitter brew with Superpride, just a single BB pale Pilsener malt, a lager yeast and ...... yess cane sugar (I also snuck some rice in as it seems to give a very clean and bright beer... maybe uses up some of the haze proteins in the mash whatever)

However that's the style I'm after so that's what I'm using.
I recently did a Cerveza which has had very positive tasting comments at BABBs this evening. And it was more riced than a Nissan Sylvia B) Chappo also brought along a similar brew. Noice.

However if doing a Bavarian Bock, which remains one of my holy grails it will be reinheitsgebot all the way. Achtung.

We are lucky here that we can attempt to make good examples of styles from all over the world, including ingredients such as rice, maize, sugar etc, and although I'm just starting to explore the world of adjuncts I'm trying to use them in the way that are appropriate to the various styles be it trad. Australian lagers, Belgians with candi sugar or good old UK mild with inverted brewers sugar etc etc.

 

[manticle]

However if doing a Bavarian Bock, which remains one of my holy grails it will be reinheitsgebot all the way. Achtung.

What about weizen eisbock?

Just remembered a lovely drop I've tried only once - aventinus.

 

[Whistlingjack]

I might be biased.

The advantage of a set of restrictions that promote the use of all-natural ingredients in beer can't be denied. The upshot is that these restrictions, coupled with German ingenuity, have resulted in some great innovations in the brewing process.

It also makes it the best place in the world to learn brewing...

Sure, its an archaic law that has really no power these days. There are two breweries in Germany that have been given exemptions, quoting local, pre-Reinheitsgebot tradition, and this may be considered as a softening of the restrictions.

My lecturers would often say "we know there are other ways to get good beer, so we acknowledge them" (referring to adjuncts allowable in other countries)

WJ

 

[HoppingMad]

I love German beer don't get me wrong, but adjuncts like sugar have their place. If you've enjoyed a Belgian Beer or a Coopers you've enjoyed a beer containing sugar as an adjunct.

If you read 'Brew like a monk' it will open your eyes - most Belgian beers use a ton of sugar, effectively sticking the middle finger up at the Germans who do the opposite and not use sugar. Admittedly the Belgians don't use cane sugar for the most part - they use 'Candi sugar/syrup/invert sugar', but it's still sugar all the same.

Coopers pale and sparkling also use cane sugar to my knowledge, not bucketloads but it's there - and they aren't bad drops IMHO. To have a recipe that has lasted as long as those have can't be half bad.

Unfortunately Chuck has gotten it a little wrong in the article though - the German Purity Law was introduced not to make beer 'pure' but actually to stop price competition with bakers for wheat and rye that would jack up the prices, effectively restricting brewers to using barley. For more info it is confirmed here: Reinheitsgebot

Yes there are some terrible examples of Aussie beer drenched in sugar, and yup German beer is darn fine - but sugar has its place in some beer styles.

Hopper.

Edit: spelling

 

[buttersd70]

Coopers Pale Ale is all malt, apart from the prime, which is invert. Coopers Sparkling contains a maximum of 5% sugar as an adjunct.

The main question I ask in relation to sugar, or for that matter, any ingredient, is "why is this used? What does it contribute? What is it's purpose? What are the follow on effects of using it?"

So, the example of sugar in belgians has been raised, and I think that's a great example. The use of sugar adjuncts in this type of beer is not one that is born of economics, or ease of production. It's in there for a very valid reason. It contributes in a beneficial way to the beer. Surely, the same can't be said of the 30% cane sugar in Australian mega lagers. Totally different ball game, that one. (same as use of sugar in a mild....why would you add sugar to a beer that needs to be mashed hot (due to the low gravity) in order to try and force body into it in the first place? Cutting your nose off despite your face on that one. :huh: )

 

[alexbrand]

... I don't brew all my beers according the the RHG anymore.... more ingredients = more varieties.

If one of my beers follows the RHG then it's just by chance.

Alex

 

[barfridge]

Getting into the calorie counting at the bottom of the article:

most of the calories come from the alcohol
Aussie and German beers have similar alcohol content
So therefore similar calorie count

But Aussie beer is designed so you drink more of it
Therefore Aussie beer makes you fat!

Did Dr Chuck just shoot himself in the foot?

 

[manticle]

Coopers Pale Ale is all malt, apart from the prime, which is invert. Coopers Sparkling contains a maximum of 5% sugar as an adjunct.

The main question I ask in relation to sugar, or for that matter, any ingredient, is "why is this used? What does it contribute? What is it's purpose? What are the follow on effects of using it?"

So, the example of sugar in belgians has been raised, and I think that's a great example. The use of sugar adjuncts in this type of beer is not one that is born of economics, or ease of production. It's in there for a very valid reason. It contributes in a beneficial way to the beer. Surely, the same can't be said of the 30% cane sugar in Australian mega lagers. Totally different ball game, that one. (same as use of sugar in a mild....why would you add sugar to a beer that needs to be mashed hot (due to the low gravity) in order to try and force body into it in the first place? Cutting your nose off despite your face on that one. :huh: )

Essentially though, the point is that someone disagreed with the notion that all beers should be made according to the purity law/ideal (a guy from James Squire who many here seem to think make super beers). I can take or leave them but that's another thread.

Once you acknowledge that, you still (as you suggested) need to use those ingredients in a good, smart and judicious way to end up with a good product. As we all know from recent threeads, the use of hops was once controversial.

In a happy world there's a place for super wacky, break the rules Belgians and a place for ultra pure clean german lagers. I love both.

There's also a place for bland, mass produced shite as who here would still be brewing if all the readily available beers were cheap AND super tasty?

I've run circles round you logically.