Astringency Fix?

[racemate]

I'm drinking a beer right now that I brewed 3 weeks ago and it is bloody awful:
Astringent as a grater to the knuckles. I've just started brewing on the Gold Coast and I didn't adjust the pH of the water or the mash at all; didn't know what to expect of the water.
I brewed again today with some pH papers I got from Grain and Grape and used gypsum for the mash and lactic acid for the sparge water. Hoping for better from this one.
What I'm wondering is whether I can add a bit of lactic acid to the finished beer and whether that will pop some h+ ions back on the polyphenols, rendering them less water-soluble and forcing them to drop out of solution. Maybe I could use a bit of help from a fining agent. And maybe after I rack the beer off the dregs I might have something drinkable.
Anybody ever tried this or thought about it before?

 

[vlbaby]

I'm drinking a beer right now that I brewed 3 weeks ago and it is bloody awful:
Astringent as a grater to the knuckles. I've just started brewing on the Gold Coast and I didn't adjust the pH of the water or the mash at all; didn't know what to expect of the water.
I brewed again today with some pH papers I got from Grain and Grape and used gypsum for the mash and lactic acid for the sparge water. Hoping for better from this one.
What I'm wondering is whether I can add a bit of lactic acid to the finished beer and whether that will pop some h+ ions back on the polyphenols, rendering them less water-soluble and forcing them to drop out of solution. Maybe I could us a bit of help from a fining agent. And maybe after I rack the beer off the dregs I might have something drinkable.
Anybody ever tried this or thought about it before?

[post="114739"][/post]​

I occasionally cop a brew that has some astringent flavours also. I am led to believe that various finings will remove astringency from your beer, such as gelatine etc. Winemakers use fining agents quite a bit to remove astringency. The use of egg whites as a fining, is also common, however i'm not sure if this one works on beer also.

vlbaby.

 

[racemate]

Thanks Vlbaby but I've already been down the gelatin road with this beer, it made it clear beautifully but it's still bad news in the taste department. I did 2x5 gallon lots and treated the first one with gelatin...it tastes a bit better than the second one but still...blecch. Today I added 1 ml of lactic acid (88%) to the second one and will give it a week or so, then add gelatin and rack off in another week...I've got nothing to lose.

 

[marky_mark]

How were the fermentation temps when you brewed that batch?

I know that I used to get some evil tasting batches when I was less informed about just how vital fermentation temps are...just couldnt pin my finger on it for quite a while... but you may well have that under control...

But I'd still consider other sources of the problem before I considerd water chemistry. If the water is palateable to begin with then it shouldn't produce a beer that is not! Thats my reasoning.

Good Luck Dude.

Cheers,

Mark

 

[barfridge]

My first couple of all gain brews were mightily astringent, mainly due to oversparging. Time does help them quite a bit, mine were quite drinkable after about 4 or 5 months.

 

[racemate]

Thanks, Mark
My fridge temps were/are pretty tightly controlled, only varying between 19-22 C. I used safale dry yeast with that batch and I bittered with 2.5 oz of POR. This was an APA that fit within the guidelines, so no dark grains (except 50g of chocolate in an 11 Kg grain bill). My water doesn't taste good at all so I filter with activated carbon. Has anybody else had good success with gold coast water (Tallai) doing an AG?

 

[racemate]

Thanks Barfridge,
I don't think I oversparged, I followed the same procedures as I did when I brewed in the states and I've never experienced this particular drying/puckering sensation before. It seems as though, based on what I've read about beer tastes, that astringency is the culprit, although I could be wrong about that.

 

[vlbaby]

Thanks Barfridge,
I don't think I oversparged, I followed the same procedures as I did when I brewed in the states and I've never experienced this particular drying/puckering sensation before. It seems as though, based on what I've read about beer tastes, that astringency is the culprit, although I could be wrong about that.

[post="114771"][/post]​

Defining your taste buds is the most difficult thing to do isnt it. I would describe astringency as a taste sensation that is not aparent during a mouth full of beer, but after downing a mouthful it gives an aftertaste. A puckering sensation like you described. It has been described somewhere as the same taste you get from drinking a cup of black tea.

vl.

 

[Trent]

Racemate
What was the overall IBU of your APA? I havent had much, if any, experience with POR (pretty bad for an aussie, I guess), but I have heard/read that it can impart some pretty ordinary flavours over 25IBU. I find that most APA's I make are around the 35-40IBU, so it could be worth looking into the hops first. I usually bitter with Perle and finishe with Cascade in an APA, but northern brewer is also a great bitering hop, and you dont have to worry about keeping it to a low bitterness. I could be completely wrong (often am), but that is my 2c worth
All the best
Trent
PS Maybe get yourself a water filter. The water here in Forster is AWFUL, possibly the worst in Oz (no proof of that), and not far from undrinkable. I use a water filter for all my drinking and brewing water, and my beers turn out decent enough.

EDIT Just read that you DO use a filter. Ignore my last bit. T.

 

[berapnopod]

racemate,
a few things on astringency and other stuff in this thread...

Astringency is technically not a flavour, 'cos its more of a feeling in the mouth. It feels like somehow the smooth, slick coating inside your mouth has been washed away, and when you move your tongue over the roof of your mouth or teeth, it feels like everything has a high coefficient of friction.

Fermentation temp. should not affect astringency. Astringency is caused (as you suspect), by things like incorrect mash pH and/or oversparging. Basically, if your mash pH goes above about 6.0, then tannins will be extracted from the grain husks, which create the astringency in your beer.

There is nother source of astringency: hops. If you use a lot of hops (like an IPA), then you'll find an astringency in your beer. For these styles I think a bit of astringency is a good thing.

Finally, I noticed you said you used 2.5Oz of POR for bittering for an APA. I am not sure what bitterness your beer ended up with, but I have heard that POR gets really yukky when used above about 25 IBUs. I am guessing you're over that limit, so you might be experienceing this. I have not come across this problem with POR personally, so can't tell you what to look for with it. But if your problem is not astringency as I described above, then it might be your choice of bittering hops.

Berp.

 

[Ross]

Racemate,

Fresh POR is a great hop, but POR does not keep well - I've drunk several beers made from poorly kept POR & they were undrinkable in my book - from skunky to astringent - put me off from using POR for a long time...

I would be really surprised if it's the Gold coast water....

cheers Ross

 

[racemate]

Thanks for responses everybody.
I just went back and looked in promash and found that the POR I used contributed
47 IBUs to that beer. Hmmmm, maybe that is the problem.
At the time I thought since I was in Aus....
Anyway, the last 2 batches I've done (using the same malt bill) I used combinations of Hallertauer, Saaz and EKGs with no POR ( I'd wondered about the same thing myself).
So will wait and see how those turn out.
Cheers,
Mark

 

[jagerbrau]

When you say astrigency i had a problem like that and i belive it was down to mash and sparge temps, i had a stuffed thermometer. very tight in the mouth oak like falvours, beleive extracted to many tanins.. Just one more thing to look at.

 

[Gough]

Depends on your exact definition of astringency - could of course be sparging/mash temp related probs, but unless you were using a monster grain bill, my money would be on the 47 IBUs of Pride of Ringwood giving a pretty nasty mouth puckering bitterness which is appearing 'astringent'. Maybe go a little gentler on the POR next time

Shawn.

 

[jagerbrau]

what do the english call Pride of ringwood, thats right a weed not fit for brewing. hate the stuff.

 

[Aussie Claret]

Hi,
I actually obtained a copy of a local ewater report for the Helensvale region of the GC, detailed below. I thought that astringency was brought about by mashing under alkaline conditions, the PH detailed of 7.5 would be reduced wouldn't it during mashing to acidic conditions? Sorry just trying to understand the basic mashing idea.
AC
The data below are the median results for water supplied by Molendinar to Helensvale area in the last 12 months.




Units
Median

pH

7.5

Turbidity
NTU
0.21

Free Chlorine
mg/L
<0.2

Conductivity
microsimens
172

Alkalinity (as Calcium Carbonate)
mg/L
38.5

Cadmium (Total)
mg/L
<0.002

Chromium (Total)
mg/L
<0.02

Zinc (Total)
mg/L
0.02

Aluminium (Acid Soluble)
mg/L
<0.1

Manganese (Total)
mg/L
<0.01

Nickel (Total)
mg/L
<0.01

Copper (Total)
mg/L
<0.01

Iron (Total)
mg/L
0.03

Lead (Total)
mg/L
<0.01

Sodium (Total)
mg/L
16

Arsenic (Filtered)
mg/L
<0.007


If you have any further queries contact Gold Coast Water Customer Contact Centre on 1300 366 692 or via email [email protected]

 

[dicko]

Thanks for responses everybody.
I just went back and looked in promash and found that the POR I used contributed
47 IBUs to that beer. Hmmmm, maybe that is the problem.
At the time I thought since I was in Aus....
Anyway, the last 2 batches I've done (using the same malt bill) I used combinations of Hallertauer, Saaz and EKGs with no POR ( I'd wondered about the same thing myself).
So will wait and see how those turn out.
Cheers,
Mark

[post="114783"][/post]​

Hi racemate,
Some time ago I fell into the trap of exceeding 25 IBU with POR and yes it tasted horrible.
What I did was brewed another batch of the same malt bill but with very little hop. IIRC I used a small amount of cluster hops <10 IBU and then blended the two beers into a large keg and all was well. Well at least drinkable anyway.
Cheers

 

[razz]

G'day racemate and to anyone else that has had this >25 IBU POR problem. Is this astringency confined to POR or is it any hop with high alpha acid? I just did a brew with 34 IBU (Target 11%) and I would hate to end up with that taste in my beer again.

Regards, John <_<

 

[AndrewQLD]

Most high AA hops 10%> can give a mouth puckering bitterness that is similar to astringency if used in high volumes. High AA hops IMHO should only be used for bittering and not for flavour or aroma additions. Of course each hop has it's own flavour and bittering profile, but as a general rule high AA for bittering only is the way I go and your lower AA hops for flavour and aroma. Of course low AA hops are good for all additions.

Cheers
Andrew

 

[Stuster]

I do like some 12% Chinook for late additions. :chug: