Anyone doing 2V full volume mash?

[woodwormm]

I'm currently doing BIAB, and with all things brewing, thinking about the next step.

3V and sparging seems like a pain to me, but I'm contemplating a 2V full volume mash system...

My thinking behind this is...

I currently have an aluminium pot which has limitations on grain bill size in BIAB, I struggle doing double batch, big beers, also the Ally pot has been tarnished by me due to a soak in starsan, before I knew better and i'm getting a very metallic taste in my beers (which I blame on the tarnishing after a brief squiz at Palmers' How to Brew).

The sleeping bag annoys me so I'm looking at an esky mash tun.

I have an old 80L barrel keg out the back I think would make a good kettle

I just don't think 3V is for me, so keen to hear anyone's experience with 2V. Did it work for you? Pros? Cons?

cheers

 

[Dips Me Lid]

Hey mate, I've just knocked out the 4th brew on my new 2V setup and I'm liking the outcome so far.
I'm using a 30L crown urn for a mash tun with a re-circ pump and a PID controller, also using a 35L SS kettle.

My efficiency is 60% and has been the same for all brews so far, mash thickness is approx 7:1 for a 1.050 OG, aiming for 12 Litres into fermentor after boil.
I like the simplicity of it, heat up the full volume for the batch in the mashtun, add the grains, mash and run off to kettle, it's been producing consistent results so far.

Con's I guess would be lack of control over mash to grain ratios, it's always gonna be relatively high, I've read so many conflicting arguments on mash thickness I'm not really sure whether or not it's a problem at that 6-7:1 ratio.

All in all it's working well for me so far but time and more brews on the system will show me where I need to improve.

 

[nathanvonbeerenstein]

i dabbled with 2v for a while with a keggle boiler and esky mashtun, became a bit of stuffing about having to heat the strike water in the boiler and then pump to esky and then pump wort back etc etc
im now set up for 3v with the addition of a HLT to heat up strike and sparge water, also allows me in addition to run a HERMS with no extra expense (using my immersion chiller as the coil) and fly sparging straight into the kettle, im getting about 85% efficiency, and 90% if i realllly slow my sparge down and pay attention to all variables.
my 2c; the only real advantage a 2v system with an esky mash tun offers over biab is more stable mash temps and the ability to recirculate and clarify, but it comes at extra cost and a significant increase in work and throws out the ease of BIAB
mind you, its not as if many people here are thrown off by all of the expense and time involved with this hobby for what can sometimes be a small gain hey?

nathan

 

[Adr_0]

Yep, 2V here.

Few tips:
-try to minimise dead volume in the pot you use for HLT/BK. if you can fit an elbow (3/4") to the bottom of the pot that is awesome as it means you can fully drain the pot before you transfer wort across. Otherwise you will need to disconnect, lift it up and tip it out
-I encourage you to get a 20L bucket to do a sparge run with. Boil about80% of the required sparge vol, and then adjust temp to 80-90°C with some water. As soon as you drain it into the bucket, transfer the wort across. That's why you need no deadspace in your HLT/BK...
-you will very likely need a pump... But I guess you can do two tier (mash tun high) and pour hit water in
-I have gotten 73.8% and 73.5% mash efficiency fit the last two brews and haven't even hit mashout temps (and rushed sparge). Brewhouse has been 70% in both cases. I expect both of these to go up now that I have ironed out some problems

Good luck... 2V is awesome.

 

[Tahoose]

I'm still on the 2 pot with lauter bucket and I suppose you would call this a multi-vessel setup.

Did a full volume mash like a BIAB for a brew, but for the sake of a few extra litres of water I'd rather the extra efficiency that comes with a sparge.

I'd be temped to say, go for the 2v, heat up some sparge water before you transfer the wort and drain into a bucket. Move the wort to the kettle and do a batch sparge in the esky.

Would cost $5 for a bucket.

 

[Adr_0]

I'm still on the 2 pot with lauter bucket and I suppose you would call this a multi-vessel setup.

Did a full volume mash like a BIAB for a brew, but for the sake of a few extra litres of water I'd rather the extra efficiency that comes with a sparge.

I'd be temped to say, go for the 2v, heat up some sparge water before you transfer the wort and drain into a bucket. Move the wort to the kettle and do a batch sparge in the esky.

Would cost $5 for a bucket.

Yep. It would be frustrating after a while if your efficiency was stuck in the 50's for the sake of a bucket.

There are many ways to choke a cat. My 2V is on the more complex end of the scale...

 

[Flash_DG]

My Brew rig is a Aluminium 60L pot I use for HLT and boil kettle and a 50L keg used for the mash tun.
I used to do BIAB but not having anywhere to mount a pulley was breaking my back.
I find both methods work well so far got great beer out of both set ups, still getting used to the Mash tun method though.
I have a 2nd keg there that just needs plumbing and an element so I should have 3V by Christmas.
The only thing the HLT will do for me is make it easier to transfer water, instead of doing it in a 3L jug and trying to remember how many you put in already

 

[Fents]

2V full volume here as well...

100L robinox pot on the bottom and a custom rolled approx 50L pot on the top.

Start with 78L's of water in the bottom pot with the element (3.5KW) in it and heat the water, once its heated you put the top pot on (has little lugs that just sit on the top pot), connect the hose's (theres 3 outlets at the back you cant see, 1 x Kettle Outlet, 1 x Pump outlet and 1x Whirlpool outlet) pump some of the water up into the top pot that has a false bottom in it, once you have enough water in the top pot you start the pump and mash in.

Once you have mashed in you you start the pump again and it recircs from the top to bottom and bottom to top for the whole mash. Once mash has finshed ramp up the element to mash out temp and start recircing again effectivley using the bottom pot as a herms and heating the mash up to 78c.

Once you have mashed out you have an option to sparge from an external HLT such as an Urn but i've only dont this once. Finish mash out and drain it all back down to the bottom pot, empty the top pot of the grains, lift the top pot off and you now have a 100L kettle with wort in it.

I hit 75% eff constantly, if i sparge i can get 80 - 85% but im lazy and grain is cheap.

The only limatation is the mash tun is the mash tun needs to be a bit bigger, it can hold 13KG - 14KG of grain which gets me 3x 17Litre cubes of no chill wort,

I love this system as you can probably tell.

 

[Fents]

full mash :

clear wort :

mash out :

 

[Fents]

whoa big pictures are big, sorry about the size guys.

 

[Mardoo]

I've been doing 2V step mashes and have been happy with the results, with the final step at full volume. If you're doing infusion steps though you'll have trouble hitting temps, as I have found. Just a basic system, esky mash tun and a boil kettle, no pumps involved. I grind BIAB-fine so my efficiency is around 72-75%.

I'm now shifting to 3V, but mainly because I find using the boil kettle as an HLT a bit of a pain, as someone else mentioned. It also means no decoctions which I want to try. I'm also in the process of moving to sparging and recirculation, and am looking forward to clearer wort as a result.

 

[Adr_0]

I've been doing 2V step mashes and have been happy with the results, with the final step at full volume. If you're doing infusion steps though you'll have trouble hitting temps, as I have found. Just a basic system, esky mash tun and a boil kettle, no pumps involved. I grind BIAB-fine so my efficiency is around 72-75%.
I'm now shifting to 3V, but mainly because I find using the boil kettle as an HLT a bit of a pain, as someone else mentioned. It also means no decoctions which I want to try. I'm also in the process of moving to sparging and recirculation, and am looking forward to clearer wort as a result.

Have you considered a pseudo-decoction (without grains) from your sacch to mash out? Will save a lot of mash tunvvolume, and is appropriate for the styles you would step (eg lager, wheat, pale/golden Belgian).

The only thing to consider is that you need to have an empty kettle, then fill your sparge volume, heat, and drain before you transfer wort back. This is only really a 'problem' with a big batch or a heating limitation, where it might take more than 15-20 min. If it does take longer than this, you get a longer mash out... So notrreally a problem, but something to consider.

I will be doing this on my next batch, more just as something to try. Sounds good in theory...

Fents - AWESOME system love it!

 

[TheWiggman]

I did 2V with a HERMS and pretty quickly (3 brews) went with 3V. Very glad I did, but I also have the space to do it.

From what I can see a 2V system is in most cases a 3V system anyway if you're sparging. I used to use a fermenter as teh 3rd vessel for first runnings and the boiler as the HLT to sparge. I'd get my first runnings out, batch sparge, then transfer the first runnings to the boiler. While doable I found this extra step irritating and required more labour.
Note that my mash tun was not big enough for a full volume mash, so my situation was different to some of the above.

Now I'm fly sparging, I'd never look back unless I wanted to upgrade to BIAB h34r:

ED: Hmm... read thread title, re-read my post. Feel free to ignore.

 

[Adr_0]

I did 2V with a HERMS and pretty quickly (3 brews) went with 3V. Very glad I did, but I also have the space to do it.

From what I can see a 2V system is in most cases a 3V system anyway if you're sparging. I used to use a fermenter as teh 3rd vessel for first runnings and the boiler as the HLT to sparge. I'd get my first runnings out, batch sparge, then transfer the first runnings to the boiler. While doable I found this extra step irritating and required more labour.
Note that my mash tun was not big enough for a full volume mash, so my situation was different to some of the above.

Now I'm fly sparging, I'd never look back unless I wanted to upgrade to BIAB h34r:

ED: Hmm... read thread title, re-read my post. Feel free to ignore.

A bucket may be considered a 3rd vessel, but:
-it costs $8 rather than $50-300
-it does not need to be plumbed, does not require heat on it
-it does not need to be cleaned past maybe a rinse if you need
-much lighter, eg <1kg vs 10-15kg
-being disconnected from your system, you can use it for grains, cleaning water, cooling water, etc

So none of the disadvantages, but you can still sparge to add ~10% to your efficiency.

So although names are just names and what works for you is 1000000% more important, the 2V plus bucket is a vastly different system to a 3V. It has a few quirks to be conscious of but it's a great configuration.

Hopefully the OP gets some good info in the thread.

 

[TheWiggman]

Probably the point I was making was it didn't work for me. Cost was what held me back initially and of course most people are going to be happiest with their own setup anyway. Biggest issues I found were -

• An extra tap to leave open (in my case - solved with a bucket)
• I use a keg as the boiler and lugging this was annoying. Would sit on a stand for the water, then on the ground to be gravity fed for second runnings
• Disconnects to/from HERMS and HLT left a bigger mess that what I deal with now
• Some HSA risk if you want to believe in that.

If I were going full volume 2V these are issues I would address. Permanent lines (see Adr_0's setup for example), pump arrangement to/from HLT and some thought put into placement of bucket for first runnings. Would also be easier without a HERMS. But... HERMS.

 

[aamcle]

I used and liked this - http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/countertop-brutus-20-a-131411/index62.html#post5749181 easy to use and clean plus it made good beer.
I'm now days away from the 1st run in my BM clone.

Aamcle

 

[QldKev]

As aamcle mentioned, have you given 1V systems a thought? For my small test system I went with the traditional forward flowing 1V, and can get 85% pre-boil eff with a cold water sparge. Also there are a lot of great designs for BM clones on here getting some great results. For a single brew size I think you cant beat them. If you want a bigger volume I could not imaging doing my 3V's 112L batch on a 1V, so that's where I think they shine more.

 

[Adr_0]

I used and liked this - http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/countertop-brutus-20-a-131411/index62.html#post5749181 easy to use and clean plus it made good beer.
I'm now days away from the 1st run in my BM clone.
Aamcle

Looks good - really well set out and functional - but looks like a recipe for airlocks and heat loss.

Why does everyone think HERMS is so much better than RIMS? Particularly if basic principles aren't followed (and we're all guilty of it at some point).

Nice move with the BM though, good luck with the first brew!

 

[boybrewer]

I built a 2V system with a HERMS and run two pumps , one for the herms and PID for the mash and the other for the sparge from the boil kettle . When I am up to mash out I then sparge from boil kettle to mash tun and pump from mash tun to boil kettle at the same time keeping an equilibrium in both until I drain into boil kettle . Easy no lifting , fetching or carrying and I still get a good efficiency rate .

 

[dent]

You know an HLT is not strictly necessary. If you're willing to forego that last couple % of efficiency, cold water sparging works perfectly well.