Alternative sanitisers

[busman]

As our main focus is wine we are very familiar with and have lots of PMS for keeping the bugs at bay in all our wine equipment. Basically anything that is going anywhere near grape juice or wine is washed with lots sulphur water, inside and out. This seems to work very well, we have only made 2 small amounts of vinegar early in the piece, and now have bug paranoia in place. Any reason this will not work for beer equipment as well ? Having said that I already have small supplies of the more common stuff like star san so will not be put out ether way when I finish getting gear together to start brewing ( vintage holding things up as well). Thoughts anyone ?
Thanks
William

 

[MHB]

Metabisulphite (mostly Sodium) was the mainstay in home brewing for decades, so yes it will probably work up to a point.

There are very different cleaning demands in brewing, we heat/boil wort and get scorched on protein that needs removing, lots more oils and fatty acids, Calcium Oxalate as beer stone, lots of Lactobacillus around the brewery.
None of this really applies to wine making.
You will need to use other products to clean, there are better options for sanitising that work better on beer related bugs, remember that brewing yeast aren’t SO2 tolerant like wine yeast...
I would say that SO2 is a good maintenance product, not really a good front line defence.
The amount of undesirable bacteria that can build up in a brewing environment used daily/weekly/monthly is a lot different to what you get in a winery used once a year.
One of our biggest pests is wild yeast including wine yeast, SO2 doesn’t kill these off and they wreck good beer.
Mark

 

[yankinoz]

To what Mark has noted, I'd add that must and wine are more acidic than wort and beer, inhibiting many microorganisms. According to one industry source, wines above a pH of 3.65 are at risk if sulphiting is the only control on infection. The only beers that go down below 3.65 are sour beers such as lambics and berlinerweissen. Most wort starts fermentation at 5.2 or higher and finishes above 4.0.

https://www.enartis.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/High-pH-Red-Winemaking-Protocol-1.pdf

My memories of the old days differ a bit from Mark's. Although many brewers added sulphites, chlorine bleach was the standby for sanitising equipment, at least in the US. It's very effective, but because chlorine in beer produces off-flavours, rinsing must be thorough. Some sources, including Palmer, claim that purging all traces can be difficult on some plastics.

Dan

 

[busman]

Thanks for the thoughts guys, another part of my all grain education.
William

 

[Dave Blackburn]

As our main focus is wine we are very familiar with and have lots of PMS for keeping the bugs at bay in all our wine equipment. Basically anything that is going anywhere near grape juice or wine is washed with lots sulphur water, inside and out. This seems to work very well, we have only made 2 small amounts of vinegar early in the piece, and now have bug paranoia in place. Any reason this will not work for beer equipment as well ? Having said that I already have small supplies of the more common stuff like star san so will not be put out ether way when I finish getting gear together to start brewing ( vintage holding things up as well). Thoughts anyone ?
Thanks
William

Hi all. I can't comment on keg sanitation, but have been bottling for 40+ years. Used the local (English) brew shops recommended sodium metabisulphide for a year or so then (1970s), after a lot of unpleasant aftertaste and on a friends recommendation I switched to a good hot bottle rinse after use, and then a half-cap of household bleach in approx. 15L bottle-rinse water before brew decant to bottles. Never had an issue in all these years nor any after taste.

 

[DucatiBoyStu]

I have brewed a lot of beer, and now work as an infection control cleaner in a hospital.

1. Clean everything - Napi San is your friend

You will get no where if you dont clean it and then not keep it dry

2 Sanitize

People get all hung up on this bit

You have several options

Bleach @10,000ppm, wash equipment, then wash again with a small amount of detergent and water
Napisan ( Sodium Percarbonate ) with HOT water above 80*c ( this is critical to make napisan work ) and soak. Can be non rinse if you get pure non scented stuff
Phos acid - non rinse
Caustic soda - must rinse
Alchohol - no rinse
Peroxide - non rinse must be above 5% ( peroxide actually forms when Napisan meets hot water)
Idophor - iodine, awesome, but stains everything

What most people do is to forget ( or dont realise ) to rotate their sanitisers, and thats where the problem begins.

Sodium met is basically garbage

 

[yankinoz]

Napisan ( Sodium Percarbonate ) with HOT water above 80*c ( this is critical to make napisan work ) and soak. Can be non rinse if you get pure non scented stuff

Napisan is a mixture of percarb and detergent, as indicated on the label. While pure percarb is a passable no-rinse sanitiser, using Napisan that way would carry over detergent.

If the alcohol is denatured, I'd want to know what the denaturants are. Methanol, though extremely toxic, evaporates quickly. Pyridine does not.

Ditto on sodium met. Winemakers use it, but the pH they deal with is lower.

 

[DucatiBoyStu]

Yes, I do know that Napi-san has a detergent. It best if you can get it from a wholesaler that has the good stuff.

Supermarket stuff still works well, but needs rinsing

We use an Ethanol based sanitizer in the hospital for just about everything, ( we hardly use bleach at all, really only for C-Diff cases) but it has a bittering agent so cant be used for brewing. Shame, as it the ducks nuts, but cost about $10Ltr.

Regardless, you need to wash everything first in a neutral dishwashing detergent...

I wish I could sneak some brew gear into CSD, but I dont think they will allow brew gear in with laparoscopy and surgical equipment.....

 

[DucatiBoyStu]

Napisan is a mixture of percarb and detergent, as indicated on the label. While pure percarb is a passable no-rinse sanitiser, using Napisan that way would carry over detergent.

Now you have to be careful, as there are several "napi-San" type products.

If it is napi-san,di-san,vanish, XXX-san ( bought from the big 3 ) then it will not be pure, but still highly effective

Sodium Percarbonate breaks down to Peroxide and Sodium Carbonate in water over 80*c. The carbonate then becomes a detergent ( remember Grandma and her washing soda cyrstals...pure sodium carbonte)

Sodium Percarbonate is listed with ANZFSA as a non-rinse sanitiser in food manufacturing plants , so it is hardly "passable" as

Honestly, you're best to buy pure Sodium Percarbonate, as it is cheap as and easy to. But the "Napi-sans" will do the same job


3. COMPOSITION / INFORMATION ON INGREDIENTS Substances See section below for composition of mixtures. Mixtures Components CAS Number Proportion Sodium Percarbonate [15630-89-4] < 30%
Sodium Silicate [1344-09-8] <1%
Ingredients not classified as hazardous to 100.0%
Sodium Carbonate [497-19-8] < 60%
Ethoxylated C12 – C15 alcohols [68131-39-5] <10%
C12-C14 Alkylbenzene Sulphonic Acid [68584-22-5] <10%

And

disodium carbonate, compound with hydrogen peroxide (2:3) ≥10 - ≤30 15630-89-4
Reaction product of Benzenesulfonic acid, 4-C10-13-sec-alkyl derivs. and
Benzenesulfonic acid, 4-methyl- and sodium hydroxide ≤5 -
Other Non-hazardous ingredients to 100%

 

[DucatiBoyStu]

FFS... I remember having this same discussion 15-20yrs ago.....

Dont brewers read and learn anymore....

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Dont brewers read and learn anymore....

I have always wanted to know, did you replace your TV after your wife threw it at you?

 

[DucatiBoyStu]

I have always wanted to know, did you replace your TV after your wife threw it at you?

Nah...It was an old Tube one...so didnt matter, glad its gone