All Grain Efficiency Very Low - What am I doing wrong

[Zoetemeyer]

Hi all

Hoping you can help.
I'm currently brewing on a three-tier system consisting of 3 56L stainless steel kettles.

Unfortunately, I'm getting a really bad efficiency. Yesterday I did a brew and it came out at about 58% efficiency.

I did a SMaSH recipe which is below;

Batch Size: 23L
Strike Water: 17.5L
Sparge Water: 18.5L

6.5kg Golden Promise Malt
30g Mosaic @ 60mins
40g Mosaic @ 15mins
1g Kopperflock @ 15mins
40g Mosaic @ 0mins

1x US-05 yeast.

I did the following steps;

1. Heated 17.5L of strike water to 74 degrees.
2. Mashed in at 68 degrees
3. Let the mash sit for 60 mins. Did not stir it during this time.
4. Recirculate using a pump. Valve was open fully. Recirculated into the top of the mash tun into a strainer with holes in the bottom of it. Recirculated for 15mins
5. Drained all of the wort in the mash tun to the boil kettle.
6. Added about 18.5L of sparge water and stirred this through the grains. (Batch Sparge)
7. Let the sparge water sit in the mash tun for about 30 mins.
8. Recirculated the sparge water using the same process as listed in step 4. Recirculated for 15 mins.
9. Drained the sparge water into the boil kettle.
10. Boiled the wort and added hops.
11. Using an immersion chiller, cooled down to 20c.Took about 45mins.
12. Took OG which came in at 1.052 where I was aiming for about 1.058 - 1.060. (Beersmith had been advising I should be around this OG).

This brew day came in at about 58% which is seriously low. Is there anything from the above that I'm not doing right or should look to change?

I've read in some places that having the values open completely allowing the wort to come out quite quickly during the 15min recirculation can hurt efficiency? I've also heard that stirring during the mash can help increase efficiency.

My water profile is below:
Calcium: 7.7
Magnesium: 1.6
Sodium: 8.7
Chloride: 13.08
Sulfate: 7.97
Alkalinity: 18

I've never really paid much attention to the pH but have seen this could also cause some issues.
Hoping this is enough information for you guys.

I recently did a brew with 6.5kg grain bill and it used a lot less water than that.

Hi all

Hoping you can help.
I'm currently brewing on a three-tier system consisting of 3 56L stainless steel kettles.

Unfortunately, I'm getting a really bad efficiency. Yesterday I did a brew and it came out at about 58% efficiency.

I did a SMaSH recipe which is below;

Batch Size: 23L
Strike Water: 17.5L
Sparge Water: 18.5L

6.5kg Golden Promise Malt
30g Mosaic @ 60mins
40g Mosaic @ 15mins
1g Kopperflock @ 15mins
40g Mosaic @ 0mins

1x US-05 yeast.

I did the following steps;

1. Heated 17.5L of strike water to 74 degrees.
2. Mashed in at 68 degrees
3. Let the mash sit for 60 mins. Did not stir it during this time.
4. Recirculate using a pump. Valve was open fully. Recirculated into the top of the mash tun into a strainer with holes in the bottom of it. Recirculated for 15mins
5. Drained all of the wort in the mash tun to the boil kettle.
6. Added about 18.5L of sparge water and stirred this through the grains. (Batch Sparge)
7. Let the sparge water sit in the mash tun for about 30 mins.
8. Recirculated the sparge water using the same process as listed in step 4. Recirculated for 15 mins.
9. Drained the sparge water into the boil kettle.
10. Boiled the wort and added hops.
11. Using an immersion chiller, cooled down to 20c.Took about 45mins.
12. Took OG which came in at 1.052 where I was aiming for about 1.058 - 1.060. (Beersmith had been advising I should be around this OG).

This brew day came in at about 58% which is seriously low. Is there anything from the above that I'm not doing right or should look to change?

I've read in some places that having the values open completely allowing the wort to come out quite quickly during the 15min recirculation can hurt efficiency? I've also heard that stirring during the mash can help increase efficiency.

My water profile is below:
Calcium: 7.7
Magnesium: 1.6
Sodium: 8.7
Chloride: 13.08
Sulfate: 7.97
Alkalinity: 18

I've never really paid much attention to the pH but have seen this could also cause some issues.
Hoping this is enough information for you guys.

I recently did an all grain brew with a 6.5kg grain bill. My calc suggested just over 32l all up (strike and sparge water). I ended up with 24.5l post boil and just under 22l in the fermenter (OG 1.070). My efficiency was around 90%. I'm no expert by any stretch, but it seems like a lot your recipe calls for a lot of water.

 

[Jack of all biers]

Thanks, this is something that I'll definitely do tomorrow. I've just been opening the valves fully so I'll definitely only open the valve 1/4 of the way.

Try 1L per minute during initial sparging. It's easy to measure this during vorlauf (recirculation of initial runnings). Then mark the spot on your valve where that speed works. You can speed up later during the sparge (I don't bother) as the speed of the initial part of the sparge is what is most important, but as the mash becomes less concentrated with sugars it frees up a little and can be sped up (but don't go crazy)

 

[NzBrewerMatt]

I recently did an all grain brew with a 6.5kg grain bill. My calc suggested just over 32l all up (strike and sparge water). I ended up with 24.5l post boil and just under 22l in the fermenter (OG 1.070). My efficiency was around 90%. I'm no expert by any stretch, but it seems like a lot your recipe calls for a lot of water.

Thanks Zoetemeyer. I suspect my numbers in beer Smith could be a bit wrong. Are you using beer Smith? Could you share what values you're using for the likes of boil off etc.

 

[NzBrewerMatt]

OK guys, an update on today's brew and unfortunately it's not good news...

So firstly, the recipe:

Nelson Sauvin SMaSH
Batch size: 23 litres
Total time: approx. 4 weeks
OG: 1.055
FG: 1.011
IBU: 40
EBC: 10
ABV: 5.75%
Mash time: 60min
Boil time: 60min

5.5kg Gladfield American Ale Malt.

30g Nelson Sauvin @ 45min
1g Kopperfloc @
20g Nelson Sauvin @ 10min
20g Nelson Sauvin @ 0min

So based on Beersmith, it told me the following details:
Mashed in with 17.3L of water @ 65c. I hit this temperature perfectly and maintained it for the whole mash.
Double Batch Sparge, first with 5L of water and 15L of water.

Steps completed:

1. Heated Strike Water to 70.5c
2. Mashed in at 65c for 60mins and stirred every 20mins
3. Vorlaufed until the wort was running clear. Did this slowly.
4. Drained wort into boil kettle very slowly to sit and wait for the rest of the wort.
5. Sparged with 5L and stirred
6. Vorlaufed the second runnings until it was clear
7. Drained second runnings into the boil kettle.
8. Added last sparge water (15L) and stirred.
9. Vorlaufed one last time.
10. Drained all wort into the boil kettle (total 28 litres)
11. Boiled for 60mins and added hops
12. Wort chilled to 20L and final gravity taken... 1.044

As you can see, I was way off my original gravity. I was meant to be hitting 1.055, however, I hit 1.044 post boil.
My pre-boil gravity was 1.039.

That's 60% efficiency.

Pre Boil Volume was 28L. Volume into fermenter was 24.5 Litres.
I also milled my own grains for the first time. (Picture of the milled grains attached.)

Any ideas where I could have gone wrong again? Putting the values into Beersmith, I've got exactly 60% efficiency.

Thanks.

 

[wereprawn]

My efficiency took a dive a few of months ago. I looked into every possible reason I could think of. Turns out I was over thinking it. My thermometer was out by 8c. If you haven't already, you may want to calibrate your thermometer. It's often the simplest things.

 

[barls]

for that amount of liquid you should be getting more out of it.
id expect to loose 1L/kg of grain which leaves 4L unaccounted for.
how much are you leaving in the kettle at the end of the boil.
the only thing i do differently is i sparge with equal volumes when i do it.
my last single bacth was two more kgs of grain than what you used and i got 1071 out of it.

 

[NzBrewerMatt]

My efficiency took a dive a few of months ago. I looked into every possible reason I could think of. Turns out I was over thinking it. My thermometer was out by 8c. If you haven't already, you may want to calibrate your thermometer. It's often the simplest things.

Yeah i thought this at the start so as well as the thermometer attached to my mash tun and kettle, i grabbed my digital one i had and put the probe into the wort. Both were reading the same.

how much are you leaving in the kettle at the end of the boil.

I'm leaving about 3.5 or so litres at the end of the boil. Most of that is hop trub as I'm just throwing the hops directly in.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Keep working on it you'll find it and forget about these woes. A simple key IMO is: More sparge/larger pre boil = higher efficiency given you've got the basics of mash technique and chemistry as well. My brew day is long. You cant rush or speed up the chemistry other than has already been done by the producers of your grain ingredients.
My brew day is 12 hours but that is multitasking other things as well. If Its a no chill brew its 8 hours then add on the time proccessing when you get around to fermenting it etc. I'm often getting 80+% total brew house efficiency with a 70lt esky with no temp control only infusion mashing and sometimes small decoctions to raise up mash temps.
Decoctions can get yummy malty characters too so its all good.

 

[labels]

Try switching to batch sparging with two batch sparges. Fellow brewer here in Adelaide had exactly the same problem as you have, around 60% efficiency and since switching to batch sparging efficiency has gone up to 75% which is normal. IMHO batch sparging is better suited to home brewing especially for newer brewers as it is fairly foolproof providing your set-up allows for it

 

[Danscraftbeer]

Try switchingThen siphon that to batch sparging with two batch sparges. Fellow brewer here in Adelaide had exactly the same problem as you have, around 60% efficiency and since switching to batch sparging efficiency has gone up to 75% which is normal. IMHO batch sparging is better suited to home brewing especially for newer brewers as it is fairly foolproof providing your set-up allows for it

To add to this.
Trick is to get the first run off boiling while doing the next sparge. This breaks up the froth (hot break) scenario. To maximise your equipment for volume.
I batch sparge 4 times. Basically the equal water to grain weight at minimum each time.
Give gentle stir, let sit, Vorlauf until the run off is fairly clear. Then add that to the boil etc etc.
A note that sparging until your run off is around 1.010 you get good efficiency.

 

[Zoetemeyer]

Thanks Zoetemeyer. I suspect my numbers in beer Smith could be a bit wrong. Are you using beer Smith? Could you share what values you're using for the likes of boil off etc.

I'm using the Grainfather and associated app and calculator

 

[NzBrewerMatt]

My brew day is 12 hours but that is multitasking other things as well. .

Wow thats a long brew day! Yeah I feel that my process of Mashing/Sparging/Vorlaufing is wrong or something isn't right as I'm just not collecting all the sugars i should be.

Try switching to batch sparging with two batch sparges. Fellow brewer here in Adelaide had exactly the same problem as you have, around 60% efficiency and since switching to batch sparging efficiency has gone up to 75% which is normal. IMHO batch sparging is better suited to home brewing especially for newer brewers as it is fairly foolproof providing your set-up allows for it

I did do a two step batch sparge. I first sparged with 5L of water and then again with 15 litres of water as suggested by Beersmith. I have batch sparged ever since i started with a three tier system so I just can't understand why i am getting poor efficiency.

To add to this.
Trick is to get the first run off boiling while doing the next sparge. This breaks up the froth (hot break) scenario. To maximise your equipment for volume.
I batch sparge 4 times. Basically the equal water to grain weight at minimum each time.
Give gentle stir, let sit, Vorlauf until the run off is fairly clear. Then add that to the boil etc etc.
A note that sparging until your run off is around 1.010 you get good efficiency.

Yeah i did think about this and whether i should have started heating up the first running's in the boil kettle as it's just sitting there doing nothing/cooling down while i wait for all the sparges do be done and the second and third running's drained into the kettle.

So frustrating

 

[barls]

have you adjusted in beer smith to account for the 4L loss at the end of the boil.

 

[Schikitar]

I had terrible efficiency on my last brew, to make that worse I then got terrible attenuation. So my wort finished lower than expected on brew day and now the fermented beer finished higher than expected, very frustrating! The previous two beers I brewed I had the opposite issue yet the process was the same (albeit they were XPAs and this last one was meant to be a BIIPA).

Hopefully you find the cause of your issues and report back!

 

[NzBrewerMatt]

have you adjusted in beer smith to account for the 4L loss at the end of the boil.

In Beersmith i have it set to 3.5L so would the .5L make a massive difference?

I had terrible efficiency on my last brew, to make that worse I then got terrible attenuation. So my wort finished lower than expected on brew day and now the fermented beer finished higher than expected, very frustrating! The previous two beers I brewed I had the opposite issue yet the process was the same (albeit they were XPAs and this last one was meant to be a BIIPA).

Hopefully you find the cause of your issues and report back!

Sorry to hear you're having similar issues. As soon as I find the root cause, I will definitely report back on what it was.

I'm thinking its either something to do with Sparging, Water Volumes, Grain crush, Beersmith setup for my system is wrong. I can't think of anything else.

 

[timmi9191]

Is any of the malt uncracked after milling. It does look like quite a bit is unmilled, but could be the picture??

 

[Lionman]

Is any of the malt uncracked after milling. It does look like quite a bit is unmilled, but could be the picture??

Doesnt look like the best grist. With it looking like that 60% efficiency is not a terrible result. I would definitely be making sure the your milling it fine enough.

Also, if you add the 4L you are leaving in the kettle to the batch size, you are actually getting 70% mash efficiency. To increase your brewhouse efficiency I would be also looking to reduce your kettle loss.

If you can improve the grist (if the photo indicates what I suspect, whole grains remaining) you should be able to improve mash efficiency to 75-80% and combine this with a reduction of kettle losses to 1-2L, you should be getting closer to the target OG.

You mention that 4L is hop and trub, it may contain these but there is still a lot of remaining wort in there too. Consider something like a lauter helix to help reduce the amount of wort left in the kettle, which will allow you to boil off more excess water (or add less in the sparge).

 

[Lionman]

Actually your numbers are all off,

You state that pre boil volume was 28L, 24.5 ended up in the fermenter and 4L of kettle loss.

28 - 24.5 - 4 = -0.5, so you somehow managed to gain half a litre during the boil...

I think your measurements are off by quite a bit somewhere in your system. You should be losing a good 4L for a 60min boil.

 

[manticle]

Sorry if I missed it - are you measuring preboil numbers (first runnings and total kettle volume)? Will help iron out the issue if you can pinpoint where it is in the process. Also test and calibrate all measuring equipment - scales, volume measure, thermometer, hydro/ refrac, etc and ensure you are using them correctly.

 

[manticle]

Malt crack looks fine to me but take any that look whole and give a rub between the fingers. If the husk and grain remain intact, it’s not right.