Aiming For Lcpa, Ended Up With Carlton Draft....

[adz1179]

Hi brewers,

Need some help identifying what went wrong here. I was aiming for a similar pale ale to little creatures, following the recipe hints in a beer & brewer mag from the LC brewer

The recipe was
5.2kg pale
.350 dark Munich
.280 light crystal
.600 wheat
Mashed at 68-69 for 60mins, 75 min boil
20gms EKG at 75
40gms cascade at 10
40gms cascade at flameout
10gms galaxy at flameout
(all hops are pellets)

Finished with 19lts at 1.056 was aiming for 20lts at 1.055 so happy with the numbers.
Chilled with an immersion chiller from 95-96 (after whirlpool) to around 30deg in 15 mins
Into the fermenting fridge at 30, fridge set on 21, pitched the yeast a few hours later when it was around 23-24, and lowered to a stable 21.

Yeast was Wyeast 1332 northwest ale. I spilt the smack pack into three vials and built up one vial with a 1lt starter for a few days then pitched the yeast cake, the starter was built up at 21 deg.

After three days only it has dropped from 1.056 to 1.015, which in my very limited experience seems a bit fast. The last time I used this yeast (split and built up exactly the same) took almost 10 days to finish.

Smells and looks the part, but the after taste is spot on Carlton draft not sure how to describe it, but if youve had a carton draft at the local bowls club im sure you know what im talking about

My thoughts:
I have never used light crystal before, or made a beer with any more than 10-15gms cascade in it. Could it be one of these?
The first 3-4lts of wort into the fermenter was pretty muddy, im assuming break and hops from a dud whirlpool effort, then it cleared up nicely. Could this contribute?
Not finished fermenting and flavours will clear up?

Should I dry hop it further? Is it safe to do so at this stage of fermentation?

I guess worst case is I still have a drinkable beer, but its no way near what I was going for....

Cheers.

 

[argon]

How long has it been finished before sampling and what did it finish at? Perhaps its just too young?

On the other notes, you want an LCPA type beer to finish quite low sub 1010 is ideal. Dryhopping this style of beer is a never a bad idea, you could do that if you want, but not sure if it will change the profile very much if youre getting Carlton Draught.

 

[Kingbrownbrewing]

That doesn't sound like anywhere near enough hops...
And as Argon said, dry hop the crap outta it.

 

[seamad]

I would mash this a bit lower than 68/69, more 64/65, but that is just my thoughts and yep try some dry hops.

 

[fergi]

Maybe should have added 350 gems dextrose to finish with a lower gravity. Grams that is..fergi

 

[Maheel]

dry hop now that should sort it

i use a similar hop "grams" weight in my LFPA or DSGA and it never tastes like carlton draft

although i had to dry hop my last keg as i neglected the dry hop in the fermenter

 

[adz1179]

Thanks for all the responses. Im aiming for anywhere between 1.010 1.014 as an FG, so Ill wait a while yet to see what happens as I said, its only been 3 days in so far.

I thought the mash temp was on the high range, but assumed the head brewer at LC kind of had some idea what he was talking about <_<

Ill let it finish, then dry hop it as suggested, hopefully this will give some improvement.

I would have liked to have a yeah its because you. as to the exact cause of the problem, but I guess its live and learn may have to brew another version for scientific purposes..
:icon_cheers:

 

[pcmfisher]

Maybe should have added 350 gems dextrose to finish with a lower gravity. Grams that is..fergi

Would adding dex give a lower FG?

 

[argon]

Thanks for all the responses. Im aiming for anywhere between 1.010 1.014 as an FG, so Ill wait a while yet to see what happens as I said, its only been 3 days in so far.

I thought the mash temp was on the high range, but assumed the head brewer at LC kind of had some idea what he was talking about <_<

Ill let it finish, then dry hop it as suggested, hopefully this will give some improvement.

I would have liked to have a yeah its because you. as to the exact cause of the problem, but I guess its live and learn may have to brew another version for scientific purposes..
:icon_cheers:

It's most likely because it's only been 3 days. Have some patience... Nothing really tastes any good after only 3 days.

Would adding dex give a lower FG?

Nope... Replacing malt with dex will result in a lower fg.

 

[GalBrew]

Speculation here but I would guess that your use of EKG hops for bittering may give you a Carlton Draught-like note in the beer. PoR hops, which will make anything taste a bit like Carlton Draught were derived from Pride of Kent hops (according to HPA). Maybe that's your problem? I would bitter with a more neutral hop, or just use Galaxy to bitter....it has plenty of AAs.

 

[jyo]

I'm picking that they are yeast derived flavours. When I sample some beers just before FG I sometimes think What the hell have I done to this. Give it a week after FG, it may clean up nicely.

Cheers.

 

[ekul]

adz- did you drink a hoppy beer before you had your sample? I was making this beer that i thought was pretty hoppy. Took a bottle to a mates place and after we sampled some of his beers we opened up mine. Tasted like a tooheys new, couldn't taste ANY hops in it at all.

 

[eamonnfoley]

It won't be recipe related. That recipe brewed properly will give a hoppy pale ale. Definitely somethig else. Maybe process, infection, oxidation, stale ingredients (possibly hops), or just green.

 

[adz1179]

It's most likely because it's only been 3 days. Have some patience... Nothing really tastes any good after only 3 days.

Yeah cheers Argon, was always planning to leave it the usual 10-14 days, and hope it cleans up

Speculation here but I would guess that your use of EKG hops for bittering may give you a Carlton Draught-like note in the beer. PoR hops, which will make anything taste a bit like Carlton Draught were derived from Pride of Kent hops (according to HPA). Maybe that's your problem? I would bitter with a more neutral hop, or just use Galaxy to bitter....it has plenty of AAs.

I figured the EKG could be a contributor, I was going to run with galaxy but have heard several times that it can overpower everything else, which is was trying to avoid.

I'm picking that they are yeast derived flavours. When I sample some beers just before FG I sometimes think What the hell have I done to this. Give it a week after FG, it may clean up nicely.

Fingers crossed without deviating from the OT too much, I was suspecting that making the starter with DME and letting it sit for probably 12-24hrs more than it needed too would cause some flavour issues with the yeast.

adz- did you drink a hoppy beer before you had your sample? I was making this beer that i thought was pretty hoppy. Took a bottle to a mates place and after we sampled some of his beers we opened up mine. Tasted like a tooheys new, couldn't taste ANY hops in it at all.

No, it was tasted as soon as I got home from work last night I did have a mad brewers hoppy hefe soon afterwards, bloody hell thats a cracker of a beer.

It won't be recipe related. That recipe brewed properly will give a hoppy pale ale. Definitely somethig else. Maybe process, infection, oxidation, stale ingredients (possibly hops), or just green.

This was my initial thought too. Ive only used a chiller twice now and the first time I used it I also had my first infected batch. That was a dud yeast issue though (as far as I could tell), so im hoping that is not the cause. I was also suspecting there may have been something nasty hanging around in the fermenter but no signs of infection. Although, if have seen people on this forum compare the taste of carlton draft to that of rodent excrement so maybe this is the case?

 

[Fourstar]

I'm picking that they are yeast derived flavours. When I sample some beers just before FG I sometimes think What the hell have I done to this. Give it a week after FG, it may clean up nicely.
Cheers.

Exactly what i was thinking. given starting temps = esters i wouldn't be surprised if there are other non desirable aromas floating around giving it the Carlton draught effect.

 

[manticle]

Speculation here but I would guess that your use of EKG hops for bittering may give you a Carlton Draught-like note in the beer. PoR hops, which will make anything taste a bit like Carlton Draught were derived from Pride of Kent hops (according to HPA). Maybe that's your problem? I would bitter with a more neutral hop, or just use Galaxy to bitter....it has plenty of AAs.

Big speculation.

Hop parent/lineage doesn't result in the same flavour. Compare styrian goldings with fuggles or Czech saaz with motueka. EKG and PoR are worlds apart in flavour.

Do you mean it actually tastes like Carlton Draught or just has not enough hop flavour? Enough bitterness?

You could boil up a bit of malt extract with some more hops. Boil it for 30-60 mins to add bitterness, 20 mins or less to add more flavour. Let that ferment out, then dry hop it, condition it and bottle/keg.

If it's just yeast, let it sit longer then try and get it to 2 degrees for a week or so.

 

[adz1179]

Do you mean it actually tastes like Carlton Draught or just has not enough hop flavour? Enough bitterness?

taste... i couldnt get closer if i tried

If it's just yeast, let it sit longer then try and get it to 2 degrees for a week or so.

that's the plan

 

[fergi]

Would adding dex give a lower FG?

Yes drop 350 grms off your malt and add 350 dextrose instead,will finish lower fg and a bit drier.
fergi

 

[browndog]

90gms of late hops should give you ample hop flavour in your finished beer. Your hops must be well stale or being masked by your combo of high mash temp and 280gms of crystal plus any fermentation by products yet to be cleaned up by the yeast.

 

[Josh SA]

Adz.

i have the same magazine and think the hop addition times are printed incorrectly.
20gms EKG @ 75 min + 40gms cascade @ 10 min is probably not even 20 IBU.
maybe this is the prob.
Im gonna try that recipe but cascade for bittering along with the EKG. IBUs was meant to be 40 odd.

Josh.