Agghhhh Cant Hit Target Volumes An Gravity

[scrumpy]

This is driving me crazy!!!!!

Im aiming at 23l @ 1.050.

I've got my efficiancy set at 75% Boil of @ 28%

I collected 28L @ 1.060

Dilluted to 39L @ 1.044

when i punch theses figures into beersmith it tells me im gonna end up with 23L @ 1.071???

F@&K!! What am i doing wrong ?? I've now drained of about 10L of wort and diluted to 1.044 (35L) hopping for the best

Help what is wrong with my numbers, is this brew doomed??

 

[cdbrown]

Are you saying your pre-boil gravity is 1060? At what temp is that reading, have you adjusted the reading based on temp?

Pre-boil grav is always lower than final grav due the evaporating water. So diluting will do nothing because you'll still need to boil off all that extra water to get to 23L. What if you punch in 34L do you get the amount you want.

Any chance of the recipe?

 

[Acasta]

Are you aware that heat effects density of a liquid? Therefore the SG you get will not be accurate. maaaybe?

 

[Pennywise]

28% looks to be a fair bit for boil off? Is that right?

 

[hazard]

This is driving me crazy!!!!!

Im aiming at 23l @ 1.050.

I've got my efficiancy set at 75% Boil of @ 28%

I collected 28L @ 1.060

Dilluted to 39L @ 1.044

when i punch theses figures into beersmith it tells me im gonna end up with 23L @ 1.071???

F@&K!! What am i doing wrong ?? I've now drained of about 10L of wort and diluted to 1.044 (35L) hopping for the best

Help what is wrong with my numbers, is this brew doomed??

I figure that you'll get 23L @ 1073 but no matter, just a rounding error. What have you done wrong? Question is - what have you done right - your efficiency is 110% - very impressive.

Who weighed your grain? Are you confident that weights were correct?

 

[raven19]

Im aiming at 23l @ 1.050.

I collected 28L @ 1.060

Are you aware that heat effects density of a liquid? Therefore the SG you get will not be accurate. maaaybe?

Something is going astray here for sure.

I would anticipate a preboil volume of around 30 - 34L at say 1040 ish, which after 60 - 90 minute boil get you your 23L at 1050.

Hydrometer sample will need to be cooled to give an accurate reading.

More info on your process will help us give some more accurate advice.

 

[Screwtop]

This is driving me crazy!!!!!

Im aiming at 23l @ 1.050.

I've got my efficiancy set at 75% Boil of @ 28%

I collected 28L @ 1.060

Dilluted to 39L @ 1.044

when i punch theses figures into beersmith it tells me im gonna end up with 23L @ 1.071???

F@&K!! What am i doing wrong ?? I've now drained of about 10L of wort and diluted to 1.044 (35L) hopping for the best

Help what is wrong with my numbers, is this brew doomed??

Who would know, not enough info.

Recipe, grain weight
Batch Volume
Target OG
Mash in volume
Sparge volumes
Preboil Volume
Preboil Gravity
Length of boil
Postboil Volume
Postboil Gravity

To start with

Screwy

 

[Sammus]

<snip>
...Boil of @ 28%...
<snip>

Thar be your problem. 28% boil off is ludicrous - it should be closer to 7%, unless your boiling like 1L in a baking tray and heating it by throwing it into a volcano.

 

[scrumpy]

Ok here is the recipe I worked of today, so can anyone see where I am going wrong?

In the end my evap rate was calculated at 24%, I boiled 35L down to 23 I got 21 into the fermenter which was what I was after.

after draining off (see 1st post) and diluting I still only acheived a gravity of 1.045, 5 points below my target!, how can I only gain 5 gravity points during a 75min boil and lose 12L to evap??

Any help would be appreiciated, I've got all my grain weighed and crushed for a ESB on Fri so I really want this sorted before then! cheers!!
​

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 23.00 L
Boil Size: 35.49 L
Estimated OG: 1.050 SG
Estimated Color: 9.5 EBC
Estimated IBU: 35.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.46 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 91.84 %
0.20 kg Weyermann Munich Malt I (15.0 EBC) Grain 4.08 %
0.20 kg Wheat Malt, Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 4.08 %
22.00 gm Centennial [9.70 %] (60 min) Hops 25.0 IBU
9.70 gm Cascade [7.80 %] (20 min) Hops 5.4 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [7.80 %] (10 min) Hops 5.0 IBU
15.00 gm Cascade [7.00 %] (0 min) Hops -
1.22 items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
1 Pkgs American Ale (Wyeast Labs #1056) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 4.85 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Saccharification Add 12.65 L of water at 78.2 C 67.8 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------​

 

[manticle]

Why not set your efficiency to what it actually is (on average) before working out the recipe? To me this is the main point of calculating efficiency - repeatability, consistency and the ability to know what to expect.

I'm also not sure why you're diluting before the boil. As mentioned, you'll just be boiling it off to get target volume so why not dilute afterwards if necessary? Sure you may have to adjust your hop amounts but that's easy enough.

I might be missing something but your approach seems backwards (not backwards backwater just backwards reverse) to me.

 

[Screwtop]

OK from your recipe and details I gather the following

This is driving me crazy!!!!!

Im aiming at 23l @ 1.050.

I've got my efficiancy set at 75% Boil of @ 28%

Yes at 75% efficiency your gristbill should give 23L @ 1.050

I collected 28L @ 1.060

Strange, you mashed in with 12.65L and added no mash out infusion. For a boil of 75 min at a boiloff of 23% per hour a preboil of around 34L is required. This leaves around 28L of sparge water to be added, either in one fly sparge, or in one or two batch sparge additions. So a total of 41.1L through your grist. After around 1.1L remains in your 4.86Kg gristbill you should have had a preboil volume of around 36L less a bit of deadspace in your tun say a couple of litres, so you would expect to have a preboil volume of around 34L at around 1.034.

So maybe a part of the problem lies in your sparging. Only ending up with 28L at 1.060 I'm thinking you did not sparge enough. Did you miss a sparge step??????


Piece a piss this brewing game eh!


Screwy

 

[scrumpy]

Why not set your efficiency to what it actually is (on average) before working out the recipe? To me this is the main point of calculating efficiency - repeatability, consistency and the ability to know what to expect.

I'm also not sure why you're diluting before the boil. As mentioned, you'll just be boiling it off to get target volume so why not dilute afterwards if necessary? Sure you may have to adjust your hop amounts but that's easy enough.

I might be missing something but your approach seems backwards (not backwards backwater just backwards reverse) to me.

I figure the aim is to boil down to your target volume and end up at the correct gravity also....Is it safe to top up with tap water or is the done thing to top up with purchased or pre-boiled water?

how would i re-adjust my hops for a higher gravity boil in beer smith? the program suggests to top up to a pre-boil volume of (X) then boil down to target volume and gravity........

maybe I am over sparging?? is 28L 1.060 much to high?? When do others cut of there sparge, I just keep going till the run off hits 1.020 - 1.012.

 

[manticle]

If you're going to do that though, start with the right preboil volume and gravity after working out your system losses. If you are trying to extend beyond your system I would go the other way. Keep in mind it's what makes sense to me - I don't use this method. I know my general efficiency and boil off rate. Occasionally I'm one or two points above or below, one or two litres above or below but I don't stress.

As for beersmith - I don't use it. I use recipator but I'm sure beersmith will allow you to type in a recipe and adjust till you hit target vol, gravity and IBU. I know for example that I want my ESB to be around 38 so I keep changing my hops until I hit 38 (playing with flavour and bittering amounts too where necessary). It should adjust the IBU calcs as the gravity of the boil adjusts shouldn't it?

As for topping up - If you go to all that trouble with a grain based brew, just boil some extra water. You could even add it in while the wort is hot if you know your levels and target - otherwise just put it in the fermenter, let it cool and add the brew when it's chilled.

I don't think you're oversparging - I believe anything below 1010 should be left in the tun. However my approach is different.

I know my target preboil so I add appropriate strike, mash out water (which coincidentally usually corresponds to grain absorption) then sparge to make up the difference. Sparge is batch, usually only one required but sometimes two. Don't know what system you use (fly or batch?)

Even so - I come back to my original question - why not set your efficiency in beersmith to what you are actually getting and adjust the recipe to suit. No point setting 75 % if that's not what you get and wondering why it isn't giving you what you typed into beersmith.

 

[Screwtop]

When do others cut of there sparge, I just keep going till the run off hits 1.020 - 1.012.

BINGO!!!!!!

Surely that is not what is printed on your Beersmith brewsheet step by step instructions?????

 

[scrumpy]

OK from your recipe and details I gather the following




Yes at 75% efficiency your gristbill should give 23L @ 1.050



Strange, you mashed in with 12.65L and added no mash out infusion. For a boil of 75 min at a boiloff of 23% per hour a preboil of around 34L is required. This leaves around 28L of sparge water to be added, either in one fly sparge, or in one or two batch sparge additions. So a total of 41.1L through your grist. After around 1.1L remains in your 4.86Kg gristbill you should have had a preboil volume of around 36L less a bit of deadspace in your tun say a couple of litres, so you would expect to have a preboil volume of around 34L at around 1.034.




So maybe a part of the problem lies in your sparging. Only ending up with 28L at 1.060 I'm thinking you did not sparge enough. Did you miss a sparge step??????


Piece a piss this brewing game eh!


Screwy

cheers screwy! ok, i figure i dont have to do a mash out infusion cause i can just apply heat under the tun and raise the mash to mash out temp. could the problem be sparging to slow??

 

[Screwtop]

cheers screwy! ok, i figure i dont have to do a mash out infusion cause i can just apply heat under the tun and raise the mash to mash out temp. could the problem be sparging to slow??

At the risk of repeating myself:

Strange, you mashed in with 12.65L and added no mash out infusion. For a boil of 75 min at a boiloff of 23% per hour a preboil of around 34L is required. This leaves around 28L of sparge water to be added, either in one fly sparge, or in one or two batch sparge additions. So a total of 41.1L through your grist. After around 1.1L remains in your 4.86Kg gristbill you should have had a preboil volume of around 36L less a bit of deadspace in your tun say a couple of litres, so you would expect to have a preboil volume of around 34L at around 1.034.

Screwy

 

[scrumpy]

problem solved!! I think!!

O.k today I brewed the ESB! the recipe is below.

It looks like my evap rate was set way too high. I worked it out today at 7%, I had it set at 24% :blink:
Also my left over trub was more than I thought (4L), my batch volume will now be calculated at 30L which easily gets me 22L into the ferm.

My efficiency into the boiler seems high tho! (99.4%) does this seem a little odd?

any way I hit my target Gravity and my volume so Im happy, the only thing that will be off is my hop utilization due to the wrong evap rate, just gonna add a little more dry hop to compensate.

cheers for the help to all that replied!!

any thoughts on my new approach?


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - http://www.beersmith.com
Recipe: Extra Sexy *******
Brewer: Daniel
Asst Brewer:
Style: Extra Special/Strong Bitter (English Pale Ale)
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 30.00 L
Boil Size: 38.63 L
Estimated OG: 1.055 SG
Estimated Color: 16.4 EBC
Estimated IBU: 23.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 99.40 %
Boil Time: 75 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
4.90 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5.9 EBC) Grain 92.66 %
0.39 kg Simpsons Crystal Malt 150 ebc (150.0 EBC) Grain 7.34 %
35.12 gm Northdown [7.00 %] (60 min) Hops 19.1 IBU
15.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (Dry Hop 3 dHops -
20.10 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (20 min) Hops 4.5 IBU
15.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.80 %] (0 min) Hops -
1 Pkgs London ESB Ale (Wyeast Labs #1968) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Total Grain Weight: 5.29 kg
----------------------------
Temperature Mash, 1 Step, Medium Body
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Saccharification Add 13.80 L of water at 73.5 C 67.0 C
10 min Mash Out Heat to 75.6 C over 10 min 75.6 C


Notes:
------


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Acasta]

good to hear mate! This opened up my eyes to do some cals for my system.

 

[bradsbrew]

How much did you get into yhe fermenter, 22, 26 or 30L?? Also how are you measuring volume into your kettle?

Brad

 

[scrumpy]

How much did you get into yhe fermenter, 22, 26 or 30L??

Brad

It was about 22.5L, I 've droped a couple of L some where but the numbers work for how I brewed today. ( this recepie print out is re jigged till the numbers matched my outcome)