Ag With Concentrated Boil And Chill In A Fermenter?

[Taxman]

Howdy,

I am keen to start all grain, without outlaying piles of money which I don't have.

So BIAB makes sense to me, I have read all the tutorials and stuff, just wondering if anyone can see a problem with my proposed system -

Mashing the grain in an esky, doing the boil on the stove in a stainless stockpot, all at 15L, then topping up to 21L in the fermenter, in which the wort will chill naturally overnight.

As long as the SG reading is right after the mix is diluted to 21L, it should be alright? I have seen tutorials and things on concentrated boils. I just don't understand why you would need to pour it into a cube, let it cool, then pour it into the fermenter, when they are both just big plastic drums?

Let me know if there is something obvious I am missing, all grain is a strange a curious world. The forum is awesome though, invaluable!

sam

 

[benno1973]

I don't no-chill or use cubes, but I understood cubes were good because:
1. Filling the entire volume of the cube with boiling hot wort meant that the entire cube got sanitised.
2. No headspace meant less chance for hot-side aeration.

 

[brettprevans]

ill let the BIAGers answer the BIAG questions

and same for the no chillers.

althgouh i will answer you this. can you pour into a fermentor hot and let it cool. yes. ive done it. plenty of people have. BUT you have a lot of airspace that you cant get rid off (unless you purge with CO2) and that's where cubing comes in handy. also cubes you can chuck into a fridge a lot easier than a fermentor (generally speaking).

The issue your going to ahve with concentration is that your going to struggle to get enough fermentables out of a 15L pot to make a 21L batch. you could do mulitple BIAGs for a single batch and that way you get enough sugars. but im guessing a 15L can hold like 3kilo of grain which is no where near near enough for a full % alc batch. this is where people either do partials or do 2 smaller batches and combine to make 1 normal batch.

 

[thesunsettree]

+ 1 on the partial idea, i made a couple partials while building my ag equipment. you can make great beers with partials (i am slurping one at the moment :icon_cheers: ) and it is a great stepping stone to full ag, ie it gives you and understanding of the mash process on smaller scale. if you're are currnetly making kits or extract and want to move to grain then partials are a great gateway technique that will make ag seem less daunting. go for it, it might be a more efficient process with limited equipment.

my 2c

cheers
matt

edit - ooh forgot to say i did partial biab style, great fun and dead easy

 

[Nick JD]

The issue your going to ahve with concentration is that your going to struggle to get enough fermentables out of a 15L pot to make a 21L batch.

15L in the pot, I think the OP was saying. It'll work fine and it'll be easy. Check here if you haven't already.

"Struggle" is the definition of a multi-vessle setup with pumps and gas and burners and sparging and, and ...

EDIT: and Taxman - just mash in your pot. Three towels around the pot insulate it as well as an esky and that's one less thing you have to wash.

 

[MHB]

Since you haven't specified exactly what you're making let's assume you want 22.5 L of "Standard" beer (1.050 and 25 IBU's). Normally you would be looking at around 25 L in the kettle at the end of the boil.

In a conventional BIAB at around 75% brewhouse efficiency you're going to need 5.5 Kg (ish) of malt and roughly 25 g of a 10% bittering hop.

If you put that same 5.5 Kg of malt into a 15 L pot you would be mashing at barely 2:1.

I think it's unlikely that you will get anything like the extraction efficiency you're expecting, even if you do remember that the wort you're boiling will be 1.083-4 and you're going to need to up your hops to about 33 g.

I suspect that either a bigger pot or a smaller batch is going to be a better answer.

MHB

 

[brettprevans]

Thx MHB u wrote what I was trying to get at.

It's great ur heading into ag straight off mate. Anything u do that's ag is awsome. Even if it's a partial. Great stuff mate

check out manticle thread on using small pots for ag. Or maybe it's someone else. Someone has done a thread on it.

 

[Taxman]

Wow!

Awesome guys, thanks for the instant feedback!

Yeah, when I get into a new project, I check out youtube and internet content to see how other people have done it. Unfortunately the majority of web content is posted by hyperactive, excessive Americans, so you end up with the impression that you need to spend your entire super fund on ex-NASA titanium boilers and bulletproof carbon fibre hoses and stuff. When really life doesn't need to be that complicated.

That isn't to say I won't end up with an elaborate mad professor setup filling my entire garage sooner or later But it's good to find some Aussies who can give some perspective. Awesome.

So I found a place that sells big stockpots cheap if anyone is looking for one in West End, in Brisbane - its on Montague Road. I'm thinking I'll invest in a 30L or so. I figure then I won't have to do tricky SG calculations, and I'll get better efficiency. Other than that, it sounds like BOAS (Brew On A Stovetop) is the go!

 

[mxd]

don't forget, you don't need to do 20 ltr batches, nothing wrong with 10 ltrs into the fermenter.

 

[peterhop]

Cooling: I cool in the kettle (lid on, sit in a tub of water for a few hours) then siphon to fermenter. Advantages are that hot break gets left in kettle and I can splash the wort into the kettle to aerate it then. I go for the simplest way. No-chill does need an extra vessel, extra cleaning, extra wort transfer (but has other advantages)

 

[manticle]

Thx MHB u wrote what I was trying to get at.

It's great ur heading into ag straight off mate. Anything u do that's ag is awsome. Even if it's a partial. Great stuff mate

check out manticle thread on using small pots for ag. Or maybe it's someone else. Someone has done a thread on it.

Yeah I used to use a 15 L and a 10 L. Had to do two boils every brew for a full batch (chilling ice bath as quickly as possible to get the wort into the fermenter and get the next boil on). There is a slight risk to the wort as it's sitting longer before being boiled and unless you put your yeast into the fermenter a very slight risk to the chilled, unyeasted wort too. Add to that every brewday is obviously twice as long with twice as many things to do and you have to make allowances with your hop additions.

Having said that, I am living proof that you can use small pots to make full batches, both on a stovetop and on a woodfired weber.

A much easier method than mine would be the aforementioned stovetop at high gravity brew method suggested by Nick.

 

[MHB]

A much easier method than mine would be the aforementioned stovetop at high gravity brew method suggested by Nick.

So you recommend 5+ kg of malt in a 15 L pot, mashed in less than 10 L of water?

Sounds like a winner to me right.

MHB

 

[manticle]

So you recommend 5+ kg of malt in a 15 L pot, mashed in less than 10 L of water?

Sounds like a winner to me right.

MHB

To be honest MHB I'm just trying to simplify things for new brewers with limited space. I've never tried Nick's method and there's possibly all manner of things wrong with it just as there's probably all manner of things wrong with how I started out (the two pot, two boil every brew method).

My actual phrasing was 'a much easier method than mine would be..............'.

That's quite different to 'I recommend.........'

I certainly don't recommend doing what I did although I know it can be done. I've never mashed and brewed on a stovetop (have only boiled on one) so I wouldn't recommend that either. If I were to recommend, I'd say get a big enough pot from the beginning and do everything by the book. However this thread is about examining other methods.

I appreciate your input into most things but you'll help people learn more from your experience if you drink your coffee before posting.

I should also point out that my small pot method was for boil only. I mashed then in the same 26 L esky tun I dow now.

 

[Nick JD]

How many retailers are going to get behind a method where great AG beer is made with ZERO dollars being spent on gear at their store?

Taxman's mention of "15L" was the volume of the boil, not the volume of the pot.

 

[MHB]

Nick recommended exactly that, 5+ kg of malt in 15 Litres on a stove wrapped in 3 towels you agreed with him.
That's not simplifying things for a newbie - it's a recipe for driving some poor ******* to distraction - not for making their life easier.
Enough malt and water to make 23 L of beer doesn't really fit into a 15 L pot, in an esky yes, and with care (and at a high price in efficiency) you could do that.

But

"EDIT: and Taxman - just mash in your pot. Three towels around the pot insulate it as well as an esky and that's one less thing you have to wash.""

"A much easier method than mine would be the aforementioned stovetop at high gravity brew method suggested by Nick."

Is about as asinine a response as you could make; is it big surprise if you get asked about it.

I'd say get a big enough pot from the beginning and do everything by the book.

That's much more "helpful" advice and had you said that at the start I would have agreed whole heartedly.

Nick is obviously an evangelist for BIAB and I suspect gets a little over excited about its possibilities and may sometimes loses sight of its limitations.
I've had plenty of coffee, thanks, that's why I was/am being so polite.

MHB

PS
Now someone will have to rush off and try BIAB'ing 5 Kg of malt in a 15 L pot, after they have I suspect the yield will be in the 50-55% range the beer will be highly dexterinious and the wort will require a reasonable amount of sugar to hit the target gravity, that will to some extent mask the underling flaws in the beer and give something like reasonable attenuation.
You might even get a beer something like a commercial lager, if you are prepared to put up with the very poor efficiency which I'm not, especially as it would make a style of beer I don't want to drink.
No doubt Super High Gravity BIAB will be all the rage in some circles. Why not? A $25 Pot, a very cheap bag, 3 retired towels and a couple of Kg of Sugar and you can be a "real" brewer to.

PPS
Nick: - a couple of points
Hum a method that nearly half's the efficiency - think of all the on-sales of dextrose and extract as people try to hit gravity I take it all back, this might not be such a fraking stupid idea after all (tongue firmly planted in cheek).
If you do some very basic finger counting (i.e. 5 Kg malt mashed at ~2:1) it would be obvious that 15 L was an assumed Working Volume from the start
Most retailers are in this industry because they love brewing, few if any of us get rich out of it; I know I could earn a lot more money doing other things, but I love brewing.
I'm proud to be the owner of a pretty good Home Brew shop; I get to spend my week helping people make better beer, if I gave a lot of bad advice I wouldn't be in business long.

Mark

 

[Nick JD]

Nick recommended exactly that...

Read this. And this is done comfortably and effortlessly ... there's still room for more.

http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum//ind...showtopic=44264

I'm going to do a 1.050 batch of 22.5L using a 19L pot just because you say it can't be done now. Own any edible hats?

And AGAIN! No one in this entire method except you have mentioned using a 15L POT. :angry:

Only you have decided that the 21L brew the OP asked about and I gave advice on is now a 23L brew.

So of course if you can't read properly and think he said a 15L pot and a 23L brew then that's okay - some people find reading big words hard. I see also that maths is a little hard when you go over ten, "5 Kg malt mashed at ~2:1) it would be obvious that 15 L was an assumed...". Last time I checked 5kg in 15L wasn't 2:1.

 

[manticle]

Is about as asinine a response as you could make; is it big surprise if you get asked about it.



That's much more "helpful" advice and had you said that at the start I would have agreed whole heartedly.

Maybe. I won't go into lengthy explanations about my intention as you are more than possibly right and I'd prefer to see correct advice rather than bad advice perpetuated. I'll defer to your experience on this. Having read Nick's thread on high grav stovetop brewing and seen responses by people whose experience I respect as much as yours (such as Thirsty Boy) it looked like a far easier way of making beer than how I started.

Maybe it is and maybe it isn't - as I said I haven't tried it - my suggestion was more that people should look into it rather than look into what I did, as what I did was a pain in the arse. Mainly in response to what CM2 wrote by the way.

I'd like to see people make good beer rather than easy beer. If they can make good beer easily then that's great but the first comes before the second.

The way I make beer is fairly well documented here and is reasonably traditional 3V done cheaply and upgrading when possible all the time. However, I have no wish to knock others' different methods until I've tried them and seen them fail. I also don't have the benefit of the knowledge/experience some people do yet and I'm happy to admit that. It helps me (and others) learn. That's why I say I appreciate your input because it's usually reasonably detailed. Any knowledge you pass on will be passed on in turn by others, including me. A short, sharp, sarcastic post on the other hand, particularly when the original post is well intentioned, is unhelpful. I have no problems being corrected (I'd prefer it).

You may be confusing the 15L pot because of the post I wrote rather than Nick's method by the way and as specified - I used to BOIL with a 15 L and 10 L, not mash.

Read Nick's thread and comment there as to why it would/wouldn't work. There may be some misunderstanding.

 

[[email protected]]

Because your only getting 15L of wort out of the mash you'll be leaving a lot of fermentables behind. I would suggest either getting a bigger pot or after you've got you're 15l of wort out continue sparging an extra 10L out which will pick up a lot of the extra fermentables. Bring this to the boil somewhere else for sanitation and then use this to dillute the wort instead of water. You'll get a lot more out of your grain this way. Also keep in mind 15L boiling for an hour is going to end up about 10L after the boil.

 

[MHB]

Yes sorry I should have used the correct term, 15 L batch; all the calculations were done on that amount. Tho I'm far from sure that a 15 L pot isn't what the OP meant, perhaps they could tell us.

The 22.5 L batch and 25 L boil I referred to in my first post were part of a specific example in my third post, call the 23 L a typo and read 21 L if you like (my bad), either way doesn't change the argument.

5 Kg of malt and 10 L of water is a 2:1 liquor to grist ratio and will be pretty close to 15 L

The whole point is that 5ish Kg of grain and water to make up 15 L wrapped in a towel isn't going to make 21 L of good beer.

Naturally the more concentrated a batch (as the stuff left in the kettle has the same bitterness and gravity as the whole and as roughly the same volume of trub results), the greater the proportional losses.

If you want to do that experiment please do, I for one will be interested in the results, but doing something else isn't exactly going to prove anything is it?

MHB



I've never mashed quite that heavy so I thought I'd better go and check, 1 Kg of malt into 2 L of hot water result 2.85 L, that might come down a bit as the grain absorbs more moisture but that's not going to help much, the grain is already sticking out the top.

M



Sorry Im working on something else and dropping in occasionally, dont mean to sound so disjointed anyway.
Manticle in light of your last I just reread the OP, I suspect a 15L pot was what was being referred to, but did my numbers (literally on the back of an envelope, with a fair bit of rounding) on a 15 L batch, CM2 appears to have reached the same conclusion and first mentioned a 15 L Pot, then Nick JD quotes him and adds just mash in your pot

Ive assumed from the start a working volume of 15 L (so around a 20 L pot) as a 15 L pot would be absurd in this situation.
Im going to stick by what I have posted, I think Nick JD advice in the context of what was posted before it was wrong and you made a mistake in backing it, perhaps without thinking through what had been said. Nothing personal not intending to be sarcastic (well not very) but I recon watching Nick get ants in his pants every time someone critiques one of his more novel ideas could become a pay to view sport.



Oh about an hour later and that mash, it's stabilised, the top of the grain bed is at about 2.8 L and the Liquor level is at about 2.7 L, it was a fairly coarse grind (about 1.5 mm), don't know what would happen to a very fine grind. I think I'll stick to mashing in barley wines at 2.5:1

m

 

[manticle]

Ok re-reading over a few things I am also confused. The OP seems to be suggesting doing a mash in an esky then boiling 15 L of wort to top up later. Presumably the mash in the esky is a high grav mash but there's no suggestion of the size of the esky, nor liquor to grain ratio. OP is also asking if chilling naturally in the fermenter is ok.

I'm not sure if my initial and subsequent posts actually answered any of these.

@Taxman: how big is your esky and how are you hoping to get a concentrated single full strength batch from it?

As for chilling overnight - you may get away with it but most recommend against it for various reasons. Spoilage organisms are one, I think DMS is another (not 100% certain on the last).

The reason you put hot wort into a cube is to avoid chilling but the latter method relies on boiling hot wort combined with lack/reduced oxygen. When you cube you put the wort in at 90+ degrees, squeeze the air out, seal and voila - a pasteurised, stable wort. If you put it straight into a fermenter you have oxygen and pathogens to wreak havoc.

However the point of biab is to use the one vessel for both mashing and boiling so if you have an esky for mashing, why not fit it out with tap and manifold?