Ag Batch Sizes

[Julez]

Greetings,

I'm just getting into AG brewing and trying to work out a cost-effective setup. I'd like to brew more, smaller batches, rather than less, large batches. Haven't looked too much into recipes yet, and still waiting for a beer chemistry book to turn up from Amazon.com, but have done plenty of research on equipment. What I'm currently wondering though, is how straight forward is it to vary recipe sizes for a brew? For example, some people seem to do "double batches", is there any reason why you can't do a "half batch"? Would it literally be as simple as halving all the quantities for ingredients? Could I chuck a 10-12L batch into a 23L fermenter?

Any words of wisdom would be appreciated!

Cheers :icon_cheers:

 

[BenH]

Greetings,

I'm just getting into AG brewing and trying to work out a cost-effective setup. I'd like to brew more, smaller batches, rather than less, large batches. Haven't looked too much into recipes yet, and still waiting for a beer chemistry book to turn up from Amazon.com, but have done plenty of research on equipment. What I'm currently wondering though, is how straight forward is it to vary recipe sizes for a brew? For example, some people seem to do "double batches", is there any reason why you can't do a "half batch"? Would it literally be as simple as halving all the quantities for ingredients? Could I chuck a 10-12L batch into a 23L fermenter?

Any words of wisdom would be appreciated!

Cheers :icon_cheers:

No reason not to do a half-batch, though for the time you invest into AG, you may find that you want to get a bit more at a time. That said, brewing more different batches will allow you to learn more quickly.

When you "half" the quantities, it's not actually half - make sure that you allow for the losses (e.g. dead space), as these won't be halved with a half-batch. I'd suggest using a brewing program to help you scale back recipes.

Good luck! :icon_cheers:

 

[Julez]

Thanks Ben,

I didn't think it would be quite as simple as I had hoped, but nice to know it's possible. Obviously AG brewing takes a lot of time, so makes sense to brew more per batch in one regard, I agree. My three main goals are to learn as much as possible (brew more often), to brew with limited space available and to keep costs down - hence the desire for smaller batches Any particular brewing programs you would suggest?

Julez.

 

[Simon W]

Smaller batches are no probs. Most of mine are 5 to 10L
Ingredients are directly dividable, but as BenH mentioned losses don't change much. Boil-off for example will be pretty much the same rate with different batch sizes in the same kettle. Things like mashing and boiling take the same amount of time, so there's no real time saving.
A program like Beersmith can be used to scale a recipe up/down.

Small batches are great for starting out as it's less demanding on equipment, for example, most of it can be done on a stove top with kitchen gear and a few extra's.
Stepped mashing is easy to do on a stove too.
Give it a go, upsizing when you need to.

 

[phonos]

A couple of good free brewing programs are QBrew and Brewsta. Between the two of them you pretty much have everything a homebrewer needs

 

[Fents]

just remember brewing smaller batch's will still take you 3+ hours. Alot of work for a small batch of beer when you could brew a bit more for the time and effort.

 

[Adamt]

I don't think brewing 10 or even 5 litre batches is a waste of time. You get to brew twice as often as those who start out with "standard" size batches, so you become competent twice as quickly, and should you stuff it up you only lose a smaller proportion of beer. Getting the equipment to full-mash a "standard" size batch is probably the biggest stepping stone, one that should be done after getting the procedure right on a smaller-scale.


Another possibility is you could brew 10-12L of double strength wort, and dilute to 20-25L with pre-boiled or distilled water. You would have to do some extra adjustments to grain bills/hopping schedules to account for the lower mash and boil size though.


Cheers
Adam

 

[barneyhanway]

The 3 things that take the most time are
Mash
Boil
Cleanup

For me, that's a lot of time-that-can't-be-reduced for only 5 litres of beer.
I'm definitely NOT saying it's a waste of time, just that it's really pretty uneconomical, time-wise.
I don't get how you're going to be able to brew much more often because your batch size is reduced given that these parts of the process can't be shortened.
It will definitely be cheaper to set up and more space-efficient, I think there's a lot to be said for confining beermaking to the kitchen (I brew in the basement next to the garden stuff and the lawnmower, not the most sanitary of environments).

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Hey Julez,

I started out with a basically half sized system. 10-12L maybe 15 if I stretched it. I only really started to brew bigger batches when I got a kegging system and started making batches to fill a keg.

The recipes are as Simon said, directly dividable "once you know your systems area of loss". But its not that hard.. you just decide on your batch size and

Now that its not hard... I'm going to go ahead and make it sound hard... but I'll bring it back to not hard I promise.

Remember, someone's recipe for a 23 batch is already going to include their losses to dead space and trub etc etc so its probably really a recipe for making 25 or 26 litres of wort, but ending up with 23L of beer. And you dont actually know what their systems losses are... maybe they lose 2L in mash tun dead space, or maybe its only 0.75L; maybe they leave behind every last bit of break material in their kettle... maybe they aren''t so fussy. If you build a smaller system, a litre here and there is going ot effect your results quite a lot.

In a lot of cases you also wont know the efficiency of the system the recipe writer is using, or whether they are talking about extract efficiency (how much sugar they get into their kettle) or total system efficiency (how much sugar they get into the fermentor)

OK- back to not hard. Your losses to kettle are easy to work out. Brew a batch, drain off the wort that looks good, tip the rest into a measuring jug. Thats basically the volume of your kettle losses. Just add that amount to your desired batch size. So if its 2L... when you are trying ot make a 12L batch, adjust your recipe for a 14L batch. Then you can just directly divide the amounts of ingredients by the proportion of the original batch.

Efficiency is the other thing.. it will take into account the mash tun dead space. If a recipe writer is getting 80% of the sugar they create out of the mash tun and into the kettle... but your system only gets 70%.. you need to adjust. But the catch is, you wont know what sort of efficiency you get till you have brewed a few batches... and it will probably get a little better as your technique improves.

So, your gonna have to take a leap of faith for a start and also make some assumptions about the recipes you see. So I would..

To compensate for batch size -

* Add 2L to your batch size to account for kettle losses - so think 14L for 12L into the fermentor (refine the figure later)
* Assume that thats what other people have done when they publish a recipe. So if its for 23L, mentally substitute 25L
* Once you have done that, the ingredients will be directly proportional and you can just divide it up.

To account for efficiency -

* Just call your 70% for your first brew and work out what it really is later
* Check recipes for stated efficiency and adjust proportionally to take it into account
* If there isn't a stated efficiency - call it 70% and don't worry about any adjustments

Note: If you are taking your recipe from the magazines like Zymurgy, or BYO or you are getting them from the popular Homebrew books, they will mostly be working on a 19L finished batch size and assume 70% efficiency. Thats where I'd get my first couple of recipes from unless you have an established dialogue with a good homebrew shop owner or another AG homebrewer. Or you could just post the original recipe up here and one of us will walk you through converting it.

Sorry I've waffled for so long on a topic that really isn't that hard once you've done it once or twice. But I suspect you don't just want answers, but also the reasons behind them.

Hook into it and dont worry about your first brews too much, they will still be great and you can iron out the details as you go.

Thirsty

 

[Julez]

Thanks guys, awesome answers!!

I'll give those brewing programs a whirl, and great tips with those efficiency allowances too, cheers

It's one thing to know this can be done in theory, but great to hear of "real examples" and personal experiences.

This whole process to me is definitely about learning and producing good, repeatable results, so I'm not too phased about the fact it may take 5hrs+ to turn out a smaller batch size. I've also been reading about BIAB, which would make sense for a startup rig, but I really want to learn the old fashioned way.

I'm lovin' this forum, thanks again dudes. Hopefully down the track I can repay you with some el supremo brews

 

[Simon W]

Julez, if you fill in your location details, there's a greater chance someone near you will invite you along to a brewday.
Watching an experienced brewer(s) and asking questions along the way is the best way to learn the process.
Also, some HB stores do demonstration brews, worth asking around.

 

[Kingy]

i used to 19-25 litre batches untill i found a few recipes that i really liked after i worked with them a bit. These are the same recipies i use for double batches now when stocks get low. I keg 19 litres and bottles the rest. Or alternatively bottle 50 litres.Or keg 2x19litres and so on... A quick way to get the stocks up with around the same amount of time.

When the stocks are high again i start experimenting.

double batches are far more enjoyable for me as i dont run of beer and im doing the same work basically.

You just gotta make sure your going to like the beer that your brewing big amounts with.

I think it would be hard to get through a double batch of beer if you dont like it :lol:

 

[Julez]

Julez, if you fill in your location details, there's a greater chance someone near you will invite you along to a brewday.
Watching an experienced brewer(s) and asking questions along the way is the best way to learn the process.
Also, some HB stores do demonstration brews, worth asking around.

Thanks Simon, have done so now

 

[RobB]

I've only just started AG brewing and because I'm in a hurry to try everything, I often brew half size batches so I can get on to the next batch sooner. Also, if I do stuff up, I would rather be stuck with 10 litres of bad beer than 20 litres (hasn't happened yet).

I never manage to hit the efficiencies and gravities of the recipes I follow, but my beer is still turning out very nicely. Just go for it with whatever kit you have.

 

[jimi]

I brew only 12-14ltr batches. Even though my 2 (will be 3) tap kegging system is nearly set up, I still plan to only do small batches. Basically, I don't drink much, but I want what I drink to be good.
Don't let the extra time for less beer equation put you off. I find the process of making beer half the fun, bit of a meditation really (although I've only recently got brewing agin).

Have a few goes and you'll work out the volume you can produce with your set up.
I mash in a 15lt esky. I can fit 3 1/2 kg of grain max (1kg : 2.8 ltr mash)
My kettle is what confines my batch size the most. I only have a 18ltr pot.

Some of the upsides to small batches:
Try more beer styles,
brew more often,
easy to pitch a good level of yeast,
no yeast creeping out of the top of the ferm if its less than half full
Can chill your wert to pitching temp by surrounding it in ice in no time
dont need much equip or space
I consistantly hit 84% effic when batch sparging (but that depends on more things than mash size)
You can do trial batches that you can scale up at a later time / easy to experiment and cheaper

 

[Julez]

Thanks Malty Cultural (good name, by the way! ). I'm thinking that's one of the best points, just get into it!! Brewing a small batch is definitely better than not brewing at all, methinks.

Jimi, you have hit the nail right on the head with your post, I reckon. After everyone's messages, I am totally sold on the idea of small batches and like you, I'm not a huge drinker - although have a few mates that might help out there - so I'm much more into quality than quantity. It's definitely as much about the process, as it is the end result, to my mind.

Going to have to get my skates on and get my kit together. Cheers again everyone.