Adding salts to boil

[rude]

I'll always add ~60ppm calcium (calcium hydroxide) to ales at the start of the boil, but I always use acid at the same time to ensure I'm at correct boil pH. If you add salts later in the boil it will change the pH but not as much as adding at the start of the boil.

I never really add chloride / sulfate, I seem to get good hop character from mash only additions. I add calcium in boil because I find an identical recipe with same grist etc seems to floc and clear better with more calcium going into the boil / fermenter.

What boil ph do you look for & when do you test it
I aim for about 60ppm of ca for ales & they drop nicely
cheers rude

 

[manticle]

As far as I'm aware, calcium hydroxide raises pH and is a preferred alternative to calcium carbonate in dark beers for that reason. Adding to the boil, then balancing pH down again by adding acid seems odd. At the very least, you're maybe adding more acid than you need to.

 

[mabrungard]

This question regarding when to add salts during the brewing process, came up on the American Homebrewers Association forum a few days ago. You will find a detailed summary of reasons that you may or may not want to add salts to the kettle.

https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=30623.msg399705#msg399705

 

[fungrel]

As far as I'm aware, calcium hydroxide raises pH and is a preferred alternative to calcium carbonate in dark beers for that reason. Adding to the boil, then balancing pH down again by adding acid seems odd. At the very least, you're maybe adding more acid than you need to.

This is true, but if you are adding anything (salts) to the boil you are either driving the pH down or or driving it up. I would be adding just as much acid in the mash if adding the hydroxide there instead of the boil.

Why wouldn't it make sense to get the pH in the 5.1-5.2 range? The hot break behaves exactly as it should, looks healthy.

I am more than happy to be corrected on this subject

 

[MHB]

Ok
The solutions of CaCl2 and CaSO4 are both pretty neutral (the pH is around 7)
The Ca reacts with phosphates in the mash, the CaPhos is pretty insoluble, so the Ca is taken out of solution, this (to put it badly) leaves the Acid part of the salt in solution which lowers the pH.
It makes lots of sense to get the pH down to 5.1-5.3, just not the way you are doing it. In effect you are taking one step up then two steps down.
You are adding to the total amount of minerals in solution, as well as overcomplicating the process.
Mark

 

[manticle]

This is true, but if you are adding anything (salts) to the boil you are either driving the pH down or or driving it up. I would be adding just as much acid in the mash if adding the hydroxide there instead of the boil.

Why wouldn't it make sense to get the pH in the 5.1-5.2 range? The hot break behaves exactly as it should, looks healthy.

I am more than happy to be corrected on this subject

Why add calcium hydroxide at all unless you need to drive pH up (in which case, no need for acid at all)?

 

[fungrel]

Why add calcium hydroxide at all unless you need to drive pH up (in which case, no need for acid at all)?

To increase calcium levels, without adding either chloride, sulfate or sodium.

It's strange, my beers always do well in local and state comps so quality isn't affected. Fermentation is sound. Guess I am overcomplicating things by not adding to the mash but didn't really know why it couldn't just be added to the boil instead. To me, it's not complicated, seems more logical.

My mash has over 50ppm calcium so oxyalate precipitation shouldn't be an issue.

EDIT: Sorry to derail the original post.

 

[manticle]

It’s your beer of course and if you’re happy with results then great.

Any reason you avoid sulphate or chloride? High levels already?

 

[fungrel]

Quite the opposite, I like beers with low mineralisation.

Making a lot of light coloured lower IBU/alcohol beers so keeping the balance in check by ensuring the water profile is out of the way.

 

[MHB]

Have asked what acid you are using, with out an answer it's hard to comment effectively.
Also curious about your supply of Calcium Hydroxide, where is that coming from?
Mark

 

[fungrel]

Have asked what acid you are using, with out an answer it's hard to comment effectively.
Also curious about your supply of Calcium Hydroxide, where is that coming from?
Mark

Acid is 85% phosphoric.

Hydroxide is food grade picking lime, coming from an au retailer. Will dig up link when I get more time.

 

[MHB]

3Ca(OH)2 + 2H3PO4 > Ca3(PO4)2 + 6H2O, Ca(OH)2 is not very soluble (something like 25mg/L from memory)
You are really adding two chemicals that react to form an insoluble salt, then enough extra acid to get the pH down to where you wanted it. I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding why you don't get that this is a really silly thing to be doing.

If you don't believe me, make up a solution of your CaOH2, add some Phosphoric and watch what happens.
Mark

 

[fungrel]

3Ca(OH)2 + 2H3PO4 > Ca3(PO4)2 + 6H2O, Ca(OH)2 is not very soluble (something like 25mg/L from memory)
You are really adding two chemicals that react to form an insoluble salt, then enough extra acid to get the pH down to where you wanted it. I'm having a great deal of difficulty understanding why you don't get that this is a really silly thing to be doing.

If you don't believe me, make up a solution of your CaOH2, add some Phosphoric and watch what happens.
Mark

Noted.

Perhaps in reading your messages I confused your helpful attitude with a condescending one. I never said I was confident in what I was doing, although given your previous response I'm hesitant to post anything else.

 

[MHB]

I use Calcium Lactate / Lactic acid for beers where I want to as you say keep the water profile out of the way (like the little farmhouse sitting in the keg
Lactate/Lactic is a very powerful buffer, so it helps to keep the pH exactly where you want it, adds no Cl or SO4, in short its very effective.

What you are doing is basically a total waste of money (if nothing else), I know I can come across as being a bit terse rather than condescending, put it down to being a very dyslexic, slow typer .
Mark

 

[fungrel]

I use Calcium Lactate / Lactic acid for beers where I want to as you say keep the water profile out of the way (like the little farmhouse sitting in the keg
Lactate/Lactic is a very powerful buffer, so it helps to keep the pH exactly where you want it, adds no Cl or SO4, in short its very effective.

What you are doing is basically a total waste of money (if nothing else), I know I can come across as being a bit terse rather than condescending, put it down to being a very dyslexic, slow typer .
Mark

Ah ok.

I'm happy to be corrected at any time. I'm still a novice that needs correcting. If I'm wasting money, just don't tell the other half.

I think all my reading about calcium in mash / boil lead down this path.

 

[rude]

The only time Ive use slaked lime in my pale ale was when I went the big caso4 hit
Needed it to get to my ph in the mash
Didnt like the outcome so never gone that way again
I find just using caso4 & cacl2 in a pale ale gives me enough ca in the mash & boil