Add Water Or Not

[Brewme]

Hi,

I have just started to do AG. Just not sure about one of the steps.

I have just read an article from a link here where the guy explains the process of the grain, mash and boil etc. He was aiming for 20 litres after the boil, which he got. He mentioned that if he got less, he would top it up with water.

Would the beer be stronger if fermented without diluting it with water first?

My BIAB resulted in a sad 12 litres after a 1 hour boil. I topped it up to 18 litres and it turned out OK. Would I have got a nicer beer if I had fermented the 12 litres?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

Cheers

 

[Rodolphe01]

The recipe would be created with the final volume in mind. If you wind up with less volume you basically increase everything, i.e. bittnerness, alcohol etc.

I would add water to get the 'correct' volume for the recipe, and then look at why I ended up such a low final volume. Being out by 6 litres is pretty significant.

 

[Acasta]

From your grain, you can get a certain amount of sugar. So if you have less water it will be stronger, but people aim for certain efficiencies and volumes. So for example, i want to make 20L at 1.050. I do my mash and boil, then come out at 18L of 1.056. So if you want to get what u are aiming for, add water and it dilutes to 20L of 1.050. (Note these are just made up figures, no calculation behind them.) If you leave it at 18L of 1.056 and it will just be stronger in ABV. I dunno if would be "nicer" just different strength and body to what you planned.

 

[Acasta]

I would add water to get the 'correct' volume for the recipe, and then look at why I ended up such a low final volume. Being out by 6 litres is pretty significant.

Not if he is high gravity brewing. You can brew small amounts at higher OG then dilute to larger volume and less OG. ie, Nicks BIAB thread.

 

[Nick JD]

As a general rule, take the last two numbers of your specific gravity reading and put a decimal point in the middle and that'll be your rough alcohol percentage.

If your starting gravity is 1.062, then you're brewing a 6.2% beer.

If it's 1.038 ... 3.8%.

The Belgians have "doubles" and "triples" - which basically mean they've doubled or tripled the ingredients - effectively reduced the water. This gives a "big" beer - big on all aspects.

Dilute to whatever strength you want, but remember that you have to get tricky to have a "big", low alcohol beer or a "thin" high alcohol beer by adding fermentable sugaz and adjusting your mashing temperatures/lengths.

 

[manticle]

As a general rule, take the last two numbers of your specific gravity reading and put a decimal point in the middle and that'll be your rough alcohol percentage.

If your starting gravity is 1.062, then you're brewing a 6.2% beer.

If it's 1.038 ... 3.8%.

The Belgians have "doubles" and "triples" - which basically mean they've doubled or tripled the ingredients - effectively reduced the water. This gives a "big" beer - big on all aspects.

Dilute to whatever strength you want, but remember that you have to get tricky to have a "big", low alcohol beer or a "thin" high alcohol beer by adding fermentable sugaz and adjusting your mashing temperatures/lengths.

I know you said general rule but it entirely depends on attenuation and wort fermentability. If your brews get to 1010 then it's reasonable to assume that the first number after the decimal point is a good indication. However a cider starting at 1062 will give a different percentage to a beer starting there if allowed to finish completely. A mild ale, starting at 1050 but finishing at 1025 due to high mash temp will not (obviously) give 5% abv.

I guess what I'm saying is that there are too many variables for a general rule unless all of your beers finish at the same/similar point (most of mine do by the way).

If you really wanted a general rule I guess you could fudge - 'for every 10 gravity points, add around <1% to your abv' but even that's a bit off.

Could just calculate the difference between OG and FG instead of relying on generalisations.

 

[Nick JD]

...instead of relying on generalisations.

I find oblique generalisations and vague rules have the side effect of prompting lateral thought in the beginner and assisting them to develop a more rounded body of knowledge with less rote, accelerating their ability to create rather than copy.

The other answer is "get Beersmith" .

 

[manticle]

I find generalisations can be followed as rules and prevent people from laterally thinking when they're new to it all.

I don't use beersmith but I guess we are either on the same page in a different book or have made the same dish with different ingredients. I think people should think for themselves and evaluate what they are doing as well - no point taking anyone's word for it.

Rather than rules, I like to think of principles which enables the lateral thinker to expand, break or follow closely and most of all: evaluate. My principle in this case would be ABV = OG/FG rather than OG number = ABV number

 

[RdeVjun]

There's a big whack of 'it depends' with respect to dilution, I really need to know more about the OP's link and what's going on there before coming to any conclusions.
FWIW, one method I use quite a lot always has a water addition after the boil, but that doesn't mean it is appropriate in all circumstances.
One thing to keep in mind is that at the start of the boil the amount (i.e. mass) of sugars is fixed (unless there's any further additions), so diluting or evaporating some water through boiling just influences the concentration (i.e. specific gravity), sometimes this can be manipulated to the brewers advantage and that's what happens in that link above. There's a few more complex aspects to dilution though, eg. when it comes to hops utilisation and obtaining the desired degree of bittering where the effect of a concentrated boil should be taken into account, there's also post- ferment dilution which is a whole other world of pain, but I don't think that's where the OP is headed.
Nevertheless, dilution is fairly simple to do, need to know what the circumstances are though OP.

 

[Steve]

Could just calculate the difference between OG and FG instead of relying on generalisations.

then times it by 7.36

 

[manticle]

Yes you will need to use the appropriate equation or at least use one of the seven million calculators out there that will do it for you.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/abv-calculator/
http://www.hopandgrain.com/~alcoholcalculator.aspx
http://www.rooftopbrew.net/abv.php
http://www.byo.com/resources/brewing

Point being OG on its own won't tell you diddly unless every brew hits the same FG or you understand the proportional difernece OG vs FG makes and can work it out for yourself.

 

[Steve]

Yes you will need to use the appropriate equation or at least use one of the seven million calculators out there that will do it for you.

http://www.brewersfriend.com/abv-calculator/
http://www.hopandgrain.com/~alcoholcalculator.aspx
http://www.rooftopbrew.net/abv.php
http://www.byo.com/resources/brewing

Point being OG on its own won't tell you diddly unless every brew hits the same FG or you understand the proportional difernece OG vs FG makes and can work it out for yourself.

Agreed, if a new brewer asked me he wanted to find out the % of his masterpiece I would rather show him the correct way to work it out rather than a generalised oh it should be about this much, maybe.

 

[manticle]

show him the correct way

A++

 

[Silo Ted]

I find oblique generalisations and vague rules have the side effect of prompting lateral thought in the beginner and assisting them to develop a more rounded body of knowledge with less rote, accelerating their ability to create rather than copy.

You were just waiting for someone to take you up on that earlier comment, so you could start stirring shit and waxing on. Such a funny sport, but starting to become predictable.

I was going to take you up on the generalisation earlier, but I sat there and looked at your

take the last two numbers of your specific gravity reading and put a decimal point in the middle and that'll be your rough alcohol percentage.

and honestly said to myself that for many beers we would be quibbling about minor inaccuracies in the concept. Hate to admit that I like it as as rule of thumb, give or take.

 

[Nick JD]

I've never been known to wax on. Waxing off, however is my forte.

 

[goomboogo]

You were just waiting for someone to take you up on that earlier comment, so you could start stirring shit and waxing on. Such a funny sport, but starting to become predictable.

As predictable as your need to respond to NickJD's alleged shit stirring.