About To Try A Lager For The First Time

[Hogan]

Great to be provided with a new viewpoint on pitching yeast. Something which I would never have considered is now penciled in for my next pilsner.

The phrase 'you learn something new everyday' is what this forum is all about.


Cheers, Hoges.

 

[Pumpy]

Great to be provided with a new viewpoint on pitching yeast. Something which I would never have considered is now penciled in for my next pilsner.

The phrase 'you learn something new everyday' is what this forum is all about.
Cheers, Hoges.

Hey Hoges can I have your stir plate gear if you going to 'The Ross Dried Yeast Sprinkle method'

Pumpy

 

[The King of Spain]

First quote from Ross

My fermenters are filled & put in the cold room overnight, where they chill to approx 7c. The next day I put them into the fermenting fridge, set at 11c & pitch my dried yeast straight out of the cold room onto the wort.
Once the final gravity reaches 1020, I warm to 18c for 3 days, then crash chill, filter & keg.
My lagers are extremely clean & drink great after just 2 weeks kegging.

This is what I have done with my first larger put down 2 days ago, with one exception, my yeast was pitched the next day at 12c as opposed to Ross's 7c.

Then Zwickle

Very important is the pitching temp. If you want to get a great Pilsener or Lager, then never pitch the yeast at temps higher than 10C.
If you do so, youll never need a diacetyl rest.
Diacetyl is a stuff that produces an off flavor like scotch buttery, so its recommended not to get it in the beer at the first time, rather than removing it afterwards.

Also producing a yeast starter not at higher temps than 10C.

Then my question

Does my >10c pitching temp increase the risk of producing diacetyl flavours (even though I plan a rest), and if it does, why? If I pitched at 7c there would be no fermenation occuring below 10c anyway as the fermenter would have warmed to 11C before fermentation started. :blink:

Thanks in advance for your help

 

[Ross]

Does my >10c pitching temp increase the risk of producing diacetyl flavours (even though I plan a rest), and if it does, why? If I pitched at 7c there would be no fermenation occuring below 10c anyway as the fermenter would have warmed to 11C before fermentation started. :blink:

Not at all as far as I'm aware - & if you are using S-189, 12c is the recommended ferment temp. I just prefer to keep mine a little below.

cheers Ross

 

[Zwickel]

Does my >10c pitching temp increase the risk of producing diacetyl flavours (even though I plan a rest)

No, of course not. It very depends on the yeast strain.
Some yeasts do theire work best around 5 or 6C, others around 10 to 12C.

Id say, if you dont know much about the yeast youre using, let it ferment at the lowest possible temperature, anyway <10C
If Whitelabs or Wyeast recommend a working/fermenting temp around 12C, then go to that, just follow the recommendations of the labs.

 

[The King of Spain]

Thanks Ross

Thought thats what you said the other day

Cheers

Edit:

Just read Zwickles post. Yeast is S-189 so as we say here, no probs 12c ideal

 

[PistolPatch]

Poor I_Like_Chicken!

A lot of conflicting information here for you and too many options! Even the Fermentis instructions are confusing and say nothing on temperature shock.

So Chicken, for your first few lagers at least, I think keep things as simple as possible and follow Ross's method for pitching. (I've tasted his lagers and they're all great.)

Later down the track, you might enjoy very advanced methods of yeast pitching or even yeast cultivation. But for now, I think even starters are just too much for your first few lagers.

You also need to look at your temperature control and your timing. For example, I'd be very surprised at this stage if you would even know at what rate your fridge or whatever can cool your wort. (No fun having to get up every two hours at night to see if your wort has reached pitching temperature.)

In fact, if I was in your position, I would go for the simplest method possible and build on that. I would...

1. Throw your fermenter in the fridge and anytime that is convenient and the wort has gone to at least the lower end of the fermentation range then pitch your yeast as Ross described. Just sprinkle the bugger on top. (As Stuster's link above suggested, you can go way lower and this might even have advantages.)

2. Maintain the lower end of the fermentation range. Concentrate on doing that. I think this should be your main focus of effort and thought.

3. If you have done the above, don't even worry about the diacetyl rest. (There's lots of evidence to say that you don't need to if you follow the above.)

Finally, taste the bugger as soon as you can. Don't expect miracles lagering your beer - just a little improvement if anything. If you follow the above, there'll be nothing wrong with your lager. So, if you don't like it, then you need to use a different fresh wort kit or dried yeast.

Once you have found a yeast and FWK that are in the ball park of what you like, then maybe do the diacetyl rest. Or, if you like your first brew, then do the same again with the rest. You'll probably find not much of a difference depending on your palate. If there is a difference, then you really need to repeat the exercise a few times to make sure it wasn't some other factor that made the difference.

Start simple chicken! The fine-tuning should come much later.

Hope you let us know how you go.

Best of luck,
Pat

 

[jkeysers]

Wow this thread has taken off!
So much info, i'm not sure what to do now. I am thinking I will try Ross' method. It seems simple, even I couldn't stuff that up. Theres just one thing i'm still confused about with that method.

The 18 degrees for 3 day period at the end of fermentation (?which i'm assuming takes around 2 weeks?), isn't that the diacetyl rest? I thought the whole idea of doing the whole thing cold from start to finish was so that you didn't need a diacetyl rest? And if I did bring the temp up for a few days after say 10-12 days of fermentation at 10ish degrees, would that then make the yeast diacetyl-y (haha), making it unsuitable to pitch another wort on top of (like Barge mentioned at the start of this thread).

Also, due to budget constraints, I don't have a fridgemate yet. But my fridge can maintain 6-8 degrees pretty easily. Which yeast would be best for fermenting at that temperature?

 

[Barge]

Found that reference for harvesting pre d-rest last night. It was a quote from a bloke named Michael Ferguson in a book called Secrets of the Master Brewers. The book is bascially a collection of recipes from U.S. microbrewers with an interview about their opinions re brewing.

Going from memory here but he basically says that he racks off the yeast cake to secondary and performs the d-rest there. I assume he considers that the readsorption of diacetyl is performed by the yeast still suspended in solution. He then harvests some of the slurry from the primary and stores it refrigerated for up to 10 days.

I have no idea what his credentials are or if he himself has backed this up with empirical evidence. It sounds reasonable though.

My opinion on diacetyl though is that the yeast in the bottle will do as good a job of cleaning up than anywhere else. Just my 2c.

 

[jkeysers]

Thats an interesting take Barge. Maybe I will try that. I'm not really sure whose method to try now!

But yeah, a diacetyl rest in the secondary means my yeast in the primary is still perfectly usable for another wort (assuming it wasnt already).

Now I just gotta find a good lager yeast that likes to ferment nice and cold (like 6-8 degrees). Can anyone help me with that? Ross, I was probly gonna get it from you anyway, what would you recommend?

 

[Tangles]

Was going to try my first lager tomorrow. After reading the previous posts it all sounds a little difficult. Might just stick to ales instead.

 

[jkeysers]

I must admit I felt the same for a while, but ya gotta try these things I guess. Even if I make a couple of crap lagers, at least I can say i've done it.

Or you could do what someone suggested in here and try a hybrid.

 

[Ross]

Was going to try my first lager tomorrow. After reading the previous posts it all sounds a little difficult. Might just stick to ales instead.

Hi mate - Nothing difficult with lager if you have temp control & if using a dried yeast, there's very little difference to doing an ale.
Cool to, or close to, ferment temp - Sprinkle dried yeast (2 packs) - ferment - once the fg drops below 1020 (approx 10 days) raise the temp to 18c to finish the brew. then bottle/keg or whatever your normal practise is. Lagers do take longer to condition & come good, but good things come to those that wait B)

cheers Ross

 

[Tangles]

You've convinced me (not too much arm twisting involved). I've got myself a fridgemate to control temp. If I brew tomorrow and then stick in ferment fridge will it be right to pitch on Sunday morning? Is timing crucial ie. will an extra couple of hours at low temp prior to yeast pitch make any difference or do I pitch as soon as wort reaches fermentation temp? (Excuse the round-a-bout question)

 

[PistolPatch]

I think what Zwickel's post and Stuster's link are saying is that if you pitch at a low temperatures, less undesirable flavours are produced and this can negate the need for a diacetyl rest so I can see no problem pitching the yeast later on apart from an increase in the risk of contamination from other things. If you follow good hygiene practices, then this shouldn't be a worry.

Mind you, the way Ross has described makes doing the rest very easy so you might feel more comfortable including it on your first lager.

So, there is some room for movement to suit your timetable and equipment. I reckon. go with what's easy for you and then as your experience develops, try some variations - one at a time!

I think this is sensible advice but I'll be corrected quickly if not - lol!


Pat

 

[jkeysers]

Having done nothing but ales, it just feels weird fermenting at such a cool temp! I will feel like it's not done fermenting, even thought it is! haha. So I will probably give it a 1 or 2 day rest at 18 degrees, to make sure it's all finished, just for piece of mind.

Anyway maintaining 10-12 degrees for me is gonna be difficult, so i'm off to find a lager yeast that ferments at 7-9 degrees.

 

[bayWeiss]

I think what Zwickel's post and Stuster's link are saying is that if you pitch at a low temperatures, less undesirable flavours are produced and this can negate the need for a diacetyl rest so I can see no problem pitching the yeast later on apart from an increase in the risk of contamination from other things. If you follow good hygiene practices, then this shouldn't be a worry.

...snip

Pat

I asked someone at White Labs about the diacetyl rest, and when diacetyl is produced, how to clean it up (rest) etc. She said that during the log phase (yeast reproduction, with oxygen), very few of the "off" compounds are produced by the yeast, so temperature pitched is typically not a problem. Only during the anaerobic metabolism phase is when the yeast start to really excrete the nasties. It is important to note that there is overlap in the phases... so some yeast will be reproducing, while others are consuming. So it can be difficult to tell put a finger on when after the yeast are pitched, do they actually get into the dangerous anerobic metabolism phase.

I asked about diacetyl in particular... and she said that a diacetyl rest is not necessary. The yeast WILL clean up after themselves regardless of the temperature. It will just take longer for them to do it, if it is colder. So a diacetyl rest at a warmer temperature just make the yeast more active, enable them to clean up the diacetyl. So, if you primary ferment for a long time, then the diacetyl will go away without having to raise the temperature.

I have not done any lagers yet, but i asked these questions of White Labs because i saw that Ale yeasts give off huge amounts of diacetyl as well. At higher temperatures, the remaining amount left over is less so(ie. 68F vs. 75F), given the fermentation times are equal... My take on the moral of that story is, the warmer the fermentation, the more quickly the yeast will chomp up the diacetyl regardless of whether it is an ale, or lager yeast strain.

Given this knowledge, i will try something in the future... If i want a quick turnover beer... i will pitch at a reasonable temperature... bring it to fermentation temperature rather quickly.. then i will rest it at an abnormally high temperature (80F), so at that point i may be able to drink the beer only a week after bottling my ale. Nowadays, I tend to not let my bottles sit for too long anyhow.

:beer:

 

[Ross]

Here is a small extract from a question/answer session with Chris White of whitelabs on the subject.

"[dgonzalez] i think some of the guests might find this topic interesting. can you describe, in simple terms, how a diacetyl rest works? it's benefits? and downfalls of not doing one?
[cwhite] yeast make a compoud called acetolactate.
[ale] Excellent question, DG.
[cwhite] This goes outside the cell, where it is later oxidized to diacetyl.
[GSchmidt] ?
[cwhite] If yeast are still there and are metobolicly active, they will reabsorb it. If the yeast are removed, or are done, they might not reabsorb the diacetyl.
[cwhite] For lagers, you need to raise the temperature to ~65 (18c) for 1 week, starting when the beer is about 1.020. If you go much lower then that, the yeast will not be working strong enough to take up the diacetyl."

I've followed this advice & been very happy with the results.

Cheers Ross