A quick survery for those who have never entered a homebrew comp

[bradsbrew]

Maybe a comp where the average punter enters a beer and they get told what style it suits and is judged accordingly. This would also help in the development of judges as well.

Brewers can be tight, the idea of paying to give away your brew might prevent some from entering.
I done ok when entering beers into comps, my claim to fame is 2nd best stout at aabc 2009 and around that period i had plenty of different beers in bottles to send in to comps, since moving to kegs i no longer have a stock pile of readily available bottles and even with the best intensions i haven't entered a state comp since i have had kegs.

 

[good4whatAlesU]

I just make small brews, 10L or so - not a lot of spares to send off to comps.

Besides which sensory stuff.. it's all a bit subjective... What one person likes another person doesn't, who can really tell which is 'the best'? it comes down to personal opinion, or as others have stated "strictly matching a style' which sort of goes against the ethos of home brewing anyway.

 

[wereprawn]

^^ Absolutely . Subjectivity can make it difficult to take much away from certain aspects of the score sheets . The beer I entered into a comp was judged by one of 3 judges as highly carbonated , 2nd as moderately and 3rd as low carbed. One said quite fruity and another claimed no fruitiness . All poured from the same bottle . :blink:

 

[GalBrew]

^^ Absolutely . Subjectivity can make it difficult to take much away from certain aspects of the score sheets . The beer I entered into a comp was judged by one of 3 judges as highly carbonated , 2nd as moderately and 3rd as low carbed. One said quite fruity and another claimed no fruitiness . All poured from the same bottle . :blink:

In my mind at least the Inherent subjectivity in judging anything, mixed with the differing levels of experience that judges possess makes the need for some sort of style guidelines all the more important. Could you imagine the quality of the feedback you would get without them?

I have personally found with a lot of my comp entries that on a panel of 3 judges, usually 2 of them are on the same page and one has a wildly differing opinion. It's an issue with comps that I'm not sure how to address at this stage, but if that's an issue for you then thanks for the feedback!

 

[wereprawn]

In my mind at least the Inherent subjectivity in judging anything, mixed with the differing levels of experience that judges possess makes the need for some sort of style guidelines all the more important. Could you imagine the quality of the feedback you would get without them?

I have personally found with a lot of my comp entries that on a panel of 3 judges, usually 2 of them are on the same page and one has a wildly differing opinion. It's an issue with comps that I'm not sure how to address at this stage, but if that's an issue for you then thanks for the feedback!

I agree mate, nor do have a solution, but simply being human can cause wildly varying perceptions thus, sometimes making score sheets near useless if one wanted to use them to improve their beer.

 

[MartinOC]

You'll usually find that (at least in the bigger comps) at least one of the judging panel is experienced & the others are learning the ropes. Look for a BJCP judge number on your scoresheets (if provision is made for it). Those opinions are the ones you can give more credence-to when evaluating your feedback.

A good Judge is able to pick-up certain faults & actually NAME them, whereas newbies can often detect something, but not pin-point it & give feedback. That should give you a good starting-point to research the source of potential problems in your processes. Some judges will also offer suggestions for improvements.

Yeah, a lot is subjective & some people can't detect certain compounds, so defer to the ones that can (it's about understanding your own limitations). Good judges are made, not born....

 

[good4whatAlesU]

Some of the Stouts I've tasted (commercial ones) claiming to have won "this prize and that" taste like crap to me .. Whereas others from relatively unknown breweries that haven't won anything taste very nice.

Comes down to the individual and what they like to drink. Sure if you have an off taste and want to get it checked out, send it to someone who knows what their doing, but that doesn't have to be a competition.

 

[wereprawn]

You'll usually find that (at least in the bigger comps) at least one of the judging panel is experienced & the others are learning the ropes. Look for a BJCP judge number on your scoresheets (if provision is made for it). Those opinions are the ones you can give more credence-to when evaluating your feedback.

A good Judge is able to pick-up certain faults & actually NAME them, whereas newbies can often detect something, but not pin-point it & give feedback. That should give you a good starting-point to research the source of potential problems in your processes. Some judges will also offer suggestions for improvements.

Yeah, a lot is subjective & some people can't detect certain compounds, so defer to the ones that can (it's about understanding your own limitations). Good judges are made, not born....

Thanks Martin. Just had a look over the score sheets and you're spot on. One of the 3 judges was certified. That certainly changes my perspective.

 

[Danscraftbeer]

I'd like it if there was more open style or free style beer judging.
Basically I'm more interested in what I can conjure up then to imitate a specific style.
My newest style interest is New World Ale because it makes sense to me to make beers out of world wide ingredient varieties. As far as I know New World Ale is not an official style. ? Or easy to go on from that: NW Lager, NW Stout etc.
Opens the ballpark to more variations etc.
Other reason is if I have to post beer then forget about it.
I've entered beers in the local-est comp being Dromana Oktoberfest at Hickenbotham vineyard but they are specific German styles which I cant even find commercial examples to compare with but it actually what got me into the liking of Germen styles after brewing them by the guideline descriptions.

I also found that thier judges do know their stuff. First beers I entered were just what I had in bottles at the time that didn't fit any style but I entered them to the closest category to test the judges haha. They know their stuff. Their descriptions had me checking my notes to find they were right in detecting the things that were out of style. Eg. they detected I used a bit of smoked malt being inappropriate that I totally forgot I used. Crystal malt that shouldn't have been used. Too many sweet specialty malts etc.

 

[moonhead]

There are a couple of problems I keep hearing when soliciting this kind of feedback in our club, and amongst my friends.

First off is the logistics of it all. We (the clubs running these comps) need to make sure the entrants get plenty of notice so they actually have time to brew the beer. Then they need plenty of places and options where they can drop off their entry, or mail it in. Saying you need to get it to a couple of home brew shops 2 weeks before the comp is a real killer, most people work during the week, there needs to be places open on the weekends that the punters can drop stuff off at, and not in the *** end of town either.

Second issue I hear a lot of, is the styles. I asked a mate recently if he's putting in an entry into the Westgate Stout comp, he was really keen to enter his chocolate chili stout, until I told him he couldn't, there wasn't a category for that (well, I corrected myself and said he could, but he wouldn't score great as it would be out of style). I don't know what the best way to fix that is, so we run more specialty categories in comps? Seems like a logical solution to me, ensure each comp has a "Style Speciality" available. Alternatively, do we need to better communicate how these comps work? Perhaps it's not about you submitting a beer you have, but more about you brewing a beer to enter for the available styles? Dunno...

 

[GalBrew]

There are a couple of problems I keep hearing when soliciting this kind of feedback in our club, and amongst my friends.

First off is the logistics of it all. We (the clubs running these comps) need to make sure the entrants get plenty of notice so they actually have time to brew the beer. Then they need plenty of places and options where they can drop off their entry, or mail it in. Saying you need to get it to a couple of home brew shops 2 weeks before the comp is a real killer, most people work during the week, there needs to be places open on the weekends that the punters can drop stuff off at, and not in the *** end of town either.

Second issue I hear a lot of, is the styles. I asked a mate recently if he's putting in an entry into the Westgate Stout comp, he was really keen to enter his chocolate chili stout, until I told him he couldn't, there wasn't a category for that (well, I corrected myself and said he could, but he wouldn't score great as it would be out of style). I don't know what the best way to fix that is, so we run more specialty categories in comps? Seems like a logical solution to me, ensure each comp has a "Style Speciality" available. Alternatively, do we need to better communicate how these comps work? Perhaps it's not about you submitting a beer you have, but more about you brewing a beer to enter for the available styles? Dunno...

The logistical issues should be easy to sort out in theory, it's the whole style thing that is much harder to change. At Vicbrew we run a specialty category, so really you can always enter whatever you like, but it's a hard category to judge and I would imagine the people running smaller comps wouldn't want most of their entires in specialty either. I sympathise though, I wanted to enter my bourbon oaked porter into the same comp, but what can you do? I certainly understand from a logistical point of view why there is no specialty category.

My point of view with comps and style is I brew beers to style for comp entries as a test of my brewing ability against a prescribed set of criteria. Otherwise It's a bit like going to the Olympics and wanting to do the 30m dog paddle instead of the 50m freestyle. But that's just my personal opinion, people do things for different reasons for sure.

 

[GrumpyPaul]

Maybe...

Keep specialty for brews that are a variant of a style and can therefore be judged accordingly.

Add a "Freestyle" category that is an open slather category and is only judged on the Overall Impression part of the BJCP scoring with a score out of 20. Run it as fun closing event/drinks session of the end of the comp for all the helpers Judges/Stewards alike. Pour a drink - give the drinkee a scorecard with the entry number and ask to score it out of 20 - let them write comments if they want. But it can be kept simple with just the score out of 20. Then average all scores for each entry - you would want a cumulative score because some brews may get tasted by more people.

It would essentially become a Peoples Choice type of award.

Logisitics of scoring and how to coordinate it all would need some thinking but its an idea.

Earlier I suggested first entry free - I think that cost may be a barrier to entry for some brewers.

Last years Vicbrew had approx 400 entries from 100 brewers. So on average 4 entries per brewer.

At $8 per entry (or thereabouts) if you went with first entry free - you lose about $800 in funds from the 100 existing participants. But if you attracted 25 new entrants who all averaged 4 entries also you would be getting close to break even.

Another way to look at it could be that the average is 4 entries each because after that it starts to get costly - I might be possible that brewers had more than 4 entries but draw a line at the cost. You could either have anything over 4 entries is free.

Anyways - just a few ideas to for yo to explore.

Good on you for reaching out to figure out how to increase comp participation - good work

 

[MitchD]

In Canberra the brew club has 3 comps per year, all under bjcp/aabc styles. First 2 comps are split styles each comp with comp 3 being act champs. They are organised early in the year with the dates and styles set and advertised then.

As for bottle drop off Canberra is small but we have a drop off south side (usually the lhbs) and North side (comp sec's house lately) I live north and when I drop off they go in the fridge until the day of comp.

Surly the larger states can find someone willing to lend some fridge space a couple of weeks before comp date. Throw the volunteers a few free entries.

 

[moonhead]

Earlier I suggested first entry free - I think that cost may be a barrier to entry for some brewers.

Last years Vicbrew had approx 4 entries from 100 brewers. So on average 4 entries per brewer.

At $8 per entry (or thereabouts) if you went with first entry free - you lose about $800 in funds from the 100 existing participants. But if you attracted 25 new entrants who all averaged 4 entries also you would be getting close to break even.

Another way to look at it could be that the average is 4 entries each because after that it starts to get costly - I might be possible that brewers had more than 4 entries but draw a line at the cost. You could either have anything over 4 entries is free.

I'm interested in seeing the results for entry fees being a barrier for entry. That is an area we have a fair amount of flexibility with, as suggested above, and other "creative" ways of dealing with it.

I would pose a follow up question to whoever finds the entry fees high, are they expensive as in a financial burden on you, or are they expensive because of the perceived value you're getting for your entry fee?

If they're expensive because people can't really afford to enter, then we look at reducing the costs.

If they're expensive because you're not getting anything out of that entry fee, then we look at returning better information/prizes/awards/recognition/etc.

 

[homebrewnewb]

I had to mark none of the above.
I haven't submitted anything due to submission requirements.
Specifically around the entry needing to be certain volume and capped, usually from memory.

I have never bottled beer in my life, I tried once (x48 330ml) as a gift to my groomsmen, never again.
The answer might be a carb cap on a pet bottle, but with a 20$ piece of kit potentially lost, who'd be interested in that.

That and no real clubs around my area.
I have in the past bottled some up in a pet and carb cap and popped in to local breweries for feedback. I can tell you when a pro is knocking the upturned empty bottle into the glass to get the last out. It's a great feelin'.

 

[moonhead]

I had to mark none of the above.
I haven't submitted anything due to submission requirements.
Specifically around the entry needing to be certain volume and capped, usually from memory.

I have never bottled beer in my life, I tried once (x48 330ml) as a gift to my groomsmen, never again.
The answer might be a carb cap on a pet bottle, but with a 20$ piece of kit potentially lost, who'd be interested in that.

That and no real clubs around my area.
I have in the past bottled some up in a pet and carb cap and popped in to local breweries for feedback. I can tell you when a pro is knocking the upturned empty bottle into the glass to get the last out. It's a great feelin'.

All the comps I've seen (in Melbourne) are fine with PET bottles and regular PET caps. No need for anything expensive or even mucking about with bottling glass bottles. Where abouts were the requirements in glass capped bottles?

 

[GalBrew]

I wouldn't worry about the survey at the minute. Two of the questions are missing and all of the previous responses have been wiped since the forum software was updated. Hopefully it gets fixed.

 

[malt junkie]

seems result have been lost with the site upgrade, I'll wait a week or 2 and repost I know there are a good few interested parties is the results from this.

cheers
Mike

 

[GalBrew]

seems result have been lost with the site upgrade, I'll wait a week or 2 and repost I know there are a good few interested parties is the results from this.

cheers
Mike

I'll wait a bit too and see if it can be fixed. If not we will unfortunately have to start from scratch as two of the questions are missing and I can't add any additional ones into the existing poll. Hopefully the threads can be merged as it was getting some interesting responses. It's a bit of a shame really.

 

[moonhead]

I'll wait a bit too and see if it can be fixed. If not we will unfortunately have to start from scratch as two of the questions are missing and I can't add any additional ones into the existing poll. Hopefully the threads can be merged as it was getting some interesting responses. It's a bit of a shame really.

I take it this isn't getting fixed up then?