A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[crundle]

Great to hear it went well Tumi,

I wouldn't be too concerned about the bitterness yet, as the yeast hasn't had a chance to act yet, and the bitterness will diminish over time in the bottle as it is conditioned.

I throw the cold break from the cube into the fermenter and it doesn't seem to cause any flavour issues, and at the end of fermentation when I crash chill the fermenter, the cold break and yeast residue settle out well and leave me with more beer than I would have had if I had tried to separate the cold break when emptying the cube.

Get a few more brews under the belt, and you will get to know your system well enough to be able to replicate any recipe you find.

cheers,

Crundle

 

[tumi2]

Well done tumi and your post is not too long - there should be more of them with such detail. You have done a great report.

You said you had 80% success and 20% failure. I've had a few reads of your post and can't see the failure side. Can you let us know what bit/s caused you a worry?

Congrats on your first AG mate and double-thanks for your report :super:
Pat

Thanks, the 20% failure i was referring to was the bad taste and the fact that my siphon method failed miserably. But on a more positive note, i tasted the fermenting wort again after 48 hours in the fermenter and the bitterness has reduced a great deal. it is starting to taste good now. So im very happy

 

[LLoyd]

I waited for about 20 mins and didn't see any hot break only froth which was skimmed often. I will definitely be a skimmer, the skum didn't taste good and with experience making base stocks I couldn't dream of leaving that stuff in the wort.

tumi I'm bloody impressed! I enjoy a good stock like a mini brew day. Yet I'm not a wort skimmer. I never tasted the froth! Now that you've made that connection I'll simply HAVE to! I taste my stock CONSTANTLY, yet I taste my brew ONCE at the end of the chill, and three or four times during the ferment.
You mentioned at the beginning of your report, the information helping other first timers. Mate your information up to the above quote has changed the whole way I see my brew process. Foodie brewer to foody brewer,
Cheers mate!!

lloydie

 

[Scruffy]

Just finished my fourth BIAB! I love this discipline!!! However...

-snip-...bear in mind i'm from Bwittain... -snip-

i think I'm losing my mash control... I'm using S-04 exclusively in everything i've brewed in Aus - so that's proper post mash science...

At my age I like to to err on a sweeter, fuller bodied style Bitter and my old school British technique i.e. mashing at a gnats' over 155F (hopefully producing less fermentables), batch sparging @ 170F, and controlling PH (in those heady days using citric acid... :blink: - i know! but 5.4+ish), with known water profiles... and maybe a smidge under an hours' mash (I know ...again )- hopefully resulting in more alpha amylase (...i know there's trade off if you wait, and the beta's start breaking down the longer sugars... whoa: too much science...); then let fresh hop through. any road... i know BIAB isn't a mash esky...

My (perceived) BIAB method (and I actually believe i've gone a bit anal) would appear to be diluting relative concentrations of (beta and alpha) enzymes therefore altering/slowing conversion and (worse case for me) producing a more 'fermentable' (drier) mush (i.e. the chemistry isn't inhibited by normal high 'ESKY' concentration of sugars)
then again heat capacity of grain versus ....Oh bugger - drinking/boiling then typing...

...someone please tell me i've lost it, but i think i've lost a step in BIAB, namely mash control...

Unfortunately, I've also started coveting an awful lot of gadgets - refractometer, stir plate,

 

[Thirsty Boy]

IMHO - biab produces a drier beer for a given mash temperature.

So if your beers are too dry ... mash at a higher temperature. Simple as that. You should have as much (or nearly as much) control over the fermentability of your final beer with BIAB as you would with any other method. You will just have to tweak you process until you do.

Up the temp by a degree or two - then see.

And try using danstar's Windsor dried yeast - it leaves a lot more sweetness and body behind than S04

 

[reviled]

IMHO - biab produces a drier beer for a given mash temperature.

Why do you think this is? Ive recently moved house and have found my beers are finishing a bit higher than they used to? Im not too sure why this is yet tho...

 

[Bribie G]

Hi tumi, I missed your original post but as a BIAB-only brewer a couple of comments:

Rather than borrow the curtains, this time of year doonahs are plentiful and cheap and a dedicated single doonah should get you out of trouble with mashing provided you have a lid for the pot which I assume you do. Probably good to wrap the pot in an old beach towel first to keep doonah pristine.

Expensive but worthwhile as a long term investment is to get some silicone tubing for the syphoning, it's around seventeen bucks a metre from sponsors at the top of the page, ouch, but doesn't deform when hot and can be boiled to sterilise etc etc. If you are a good mechanic (I'm the world's worst handyman so that's one reason I use an electric urn) then consider fitting a ball lock tap to your pot to avoid syphoning into the cube.

Apart from that, your day was 'textbook' and good one. Congrats. My first BIAB went so well I couldn't believe it. As other posters have said the wort will taste completely different to the finished product. If I could get the final beer tasting as good as the wort I would sell my soul to Satan. h34r:

 

[Katherine]

Hi tumi, I missed your original post but as a BIAB-only brewer a couple of comments:

Rather than borrow the curtains, this time of year doonahs are plentiful and cheap and a dedicated single doonah should get you out of trouble with mashing provided you have a lid for the pot which I assume you do. Probably good to wrap the pot in an old beach towel first to keep doonah pristine.

Expensive but worthwhile as a long term investment is to get some silicone tubing for the syphoning, it's around seventeen bucks a metre from sponsors at the top of the page, ouch, but doesn't deform when hot and can be boiled to sterilise etc etc. If you are a good mechanic (I'm the world's worst handyman so that's one reason I use an electric urn) then consider fitting a ball lock tap to your pot to avoid syphoning into the cube.

Apart from that, your day was 'textbook' and good one. Congrats. My first BIAB went so well I couldn't believe it. As other posters have said the wort will taste completely different to the finished product. If I could get the final beer tasting as good as the wort I would sell my soul to Satan. h34r:

Bribie we brewed a double of Ross Bananabread bitter, once chilled we tasted it sooooooooooo good! We arent putting bananas in our half of the brew its that good! Looking forward to sampling it in a week or so!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Why do you think this is? Ive recently moved house and have found my beers are finishing a bit higher than they used to? Im not too sure why this is yet tho...

Just in the beers I have made and the beers of the other BIAB brewer who I have tasted the most samples from - Knowing the mash temps, I would have expected a bit more body.. raising mash temps fixed the issue. But if I tried the same temps on my non-biab rig, I would get beers a little too chewy. Its a not big difference in my system, but the other brewer I mentioned needed to go up several degrees hotter before he started producing beers that I thought had appropriate body.

Nothing that cant be fixed by tweaking over a few brews - probably as much difference between two different people's mash tun based systems. just something I have noticed thats all.

The main thing I wanted to do was provide a bit of reassurance that BIAB does not "spoil" you ability to control the fermentability of your beer - it affects it, but doesn't spoil it. You can make the beer you want if you make the appropriate adjustments.

 

[Scruffy]

The main thing I wanted to do was provide a bit of reassurance that BIAB does not "spoil" you ability to control the fermentability of your beer - it affects it, but doesn't spoil it. You can make the beer you want if you make the appropriate adjustments.

Which you did, thanks! I'll stick my head down, learn my system (which I'm still new to) and mash up a couple of notches...

Good cheers - and apologies for the slightly tipsy post before...

 

[tumi2]

Update on my first BIAB described several posts ago.

Unfortunately it has gone south since my last positive post.

the temperature dropped to about 16 or 17 degs while we were on holiday for 5 days so i think that it has stopped fermenting. it only dropped from 1039 to 1024 and has been stable on 1024 for a few days now. i have raised the temp to about 22 so hopefully it will start up again.
Also, a taste test has come up negative....
if you read my post about how my transfer from Kettle to cube went you will know it went pear shaped due to a collapsing hose so in the end i had to pour the wort in and it splashed a great deal.. so HSA is a certainty. After reading what HSA tastes like i can tell you that wet cardboard is a pretty close description cause my beer tastes like that... very disappointed.

My limited knowledge has taught me the following things:
- My mash temp of 69 deg was to high cause the wort taste sweetish with dextrins and is not fermenting as low as i would like, it is also high in body. This could explain the lack of fermentation - can easily reduce this next time
- I need to get better temp control in fermentation and consider learning how to start my yeast.
- My transfer sucked which caused HSA - Already ordered some silicone pipe to overcome this
- I now have a aeration pump so i can air my wort before pitching yeast which i didnt do.

I am not giving up and will try the exact same recipe again so i can clearly learn from all this and the differences so although i am disappointed i sort of feel that the mistake and poor result will teach me more than a successful result.

 

[reviled]

if you read my post about how my transfer from Kettle to cube went you will know it went pear shaped due to a collapsing hose so in the end i had to pour the wort in and it splashed a great deal.. so HSA is a certainty. After reading what HSA tastes like i can tell you that wet cardboard is a pretty close description cause my beer tastes like that... very disappointed.

I dont know if you would have got HSA, I have done this a few times without a negative result, in fact one of the best beers ive made was splashed about after the boil into a cube...

 

[Bizier]

The main thing I wanted to do was provide a bit of reassurance that BIAB does not "spoil" you ability to control the fermentability of your beer - it affects it, but doesn't spoil it. You can make the beer you want if you make the appropriate adjustments.

I have just done my first 2 BIAB AG beers. Yay me!

My second was a SMASH (single malt and single hop) using only 5kg of TF MO + goldings for a slightly under 25L batch. I mashed at about 69 and I found it drier than expected from the hydro sample at bottling.

My Q. to you Mr Thirsty is how high would you go comfortably?

BTW BIAB rules! I am one happy apartment brewer.

 

[PistolPatch]

Go the apartment brewer! Well done Bizier :icon_cheers:

Just one word of warning on this mash temperature business. Be very careful before you start playing with it. ThirstyBoy will totally agree with this advice especially as he BIABs on a smaller scale than the 23lts most Aussie BIABers are aiming for and this means there could be unseen factors totally unrelated to BIAB.

1. Check your thermometer - I have written on the inaccuracy of thermometers a heap before.
2. Stay at the recommended mash temperature for your recipes for your first few brews - Beers I have brewed alongside traditional using the same thermometer have tasted pretty much the same so beware of anecdotal reports. I actually brew towards more 62-64 degrees.
3. Understand that some styles of beer are sweeter than others - At 64 degrees, I can brew a Munich Dunkell and it will taste totally sweet(and surprisingly get a medal!) I mash a very bitter and hoppy pale ale at exactly the same temperature.

If you have an accurate thermometer, you should be looking at your recipe very carefully before altering your mash temperature. The only side by side of BIAB/traditional I am aware of that was triangularly tested by several brewers is the one I did a few years back and where only one brewer picked a difference.

Be very, very careful before you play with mash temps.

Looking forward to a beer on your balcony, Bizier!

Spot ya,
Pat

 

[crundle]

I dont know if you would have got HSA, I have done this a few times without a negative result, in fact one of the best beers ive made was splashed about after the boil into a cube...

+1

I fill the cube directly from the tap on my urn, never used a hose and never had the cardboard taste occur. At risk of starting up the whole HSA argument, I am not concerned about HSA. Apparently it may have an effect on the stability of the beer flavour over time, but most beers are gone in 6 months at the most at my place.


Crundle

 

[Bizier]

Looking forward to a beer on your balcony, Bizier!

If I had a balcony, it would probably have a fixed brew rig on it... but you are very welcome to crack a beer at mine Pat. :icon_chickcheers:

 

[Thirsty Boy]

I sort of disagree and sort of agree with Pat.

I'm not suggesting, and I think that this is what Pat is trying to avoid, that everyone should rush out there and increase (or decrease) their mash temperatures by 5 or 8 degrees just because they are doing BIAB.

Equally - slavishly sticking to the temps suggested by a recipe is just plain stupid. Everybody's system, BIAB or not is different, and the mash temps they need to use to achieve a given result will be different. A recipe is given with a mash temp, because that's what works on the system of the recipe writer... it might not work on yours. Do not be afraid to change it.

In Scruffy's case, he has brewed a recipe, it has come out with less body than he wants - and he should obviously increase his mash temperatures to compensate - this would be true whether he brewed BIAB or any other way. When he re-brews that recipe, he tweaks, re-brews and maybe tweaks again and again till he gets it right.

This is what everyone does. If you notice that you need to to tweak every recipe up a couple of degrees... then maybe its a reasonable assumption to make that your system needs to run a little hotter than most and you could start to preemptively adjust your mash temps up - which is what I do when I BIAB. Its just experience.

But you don't need to be all cautious and tender footed about it - brew that recipe once, too thin, raise the mash temps! Think about a general mash temp adjustment if you start to notice a trend. But that's what I am talking about ... a trend. And two or three beers doesn't make a trend.

Oh - and I want to emphasize yet again - mash temperature does not particularly affect the sweetness of your beer - it affects the proportion of longer chained sugars (dextrins); and dextrins are not really sweet. Taste some malto dextrin, taste some carapils ... not sweet! You increase the final gravity, body and mouthfeel of a beer by mashing higher. NOT the actual sweetness (well not much).

If your beer is too sweet - you have a recipe issue (you used too much malt with unfermentable sweet sugars - eg crystal) or you have a fermentation issue (your yeast failed to eat the fermentable sugars you made, which are sweet) The residual sugars will also increase the body and mouthfeel.

If your beer is too thick and chewy, but not all that sweet -- then you have a mash temp issue.

Or you might have both issues at once.

Bizier - assuming that everything else went to plan and you are already following Pats excellent advice about thermometers and accuracy etc etc. Mash it a degree higher next time. There is no level at which I would say "dont go any higher" because I don't know your system. If the beers are turning out too dry... then you can go higher. Period.

But - if you have go much higher than you currently are... then I suspect a problem with the way you are measuring your temperatures and would have a look at your technique. Come to think of it - two brews in, you probably have no technique to speak of. Go up a degree (for that particular beer!!) next time, but be prepared for variable results. When you have everything nailed down tightly, in 10 or 20 brews time -- then you can start to expect some consistency, till then be prepared for surprises.

TB

 

[katzke]

if you read my post about how my transfer from Kettle to cube went you will know it went pear shaped due to a collapsing hose so in the end i had to pour the wort in and it splashed a great deal.. so HSA is a certainty. After reading what HSA tastes like i can tell you that wet cardboard is a pretty close description cause my beer tastes like that... very disappointed.


- I now have a aeration pump so i can air my wort before pitching yeast which i didnt do.

Well you seem to be chasing a few problems.

I would guess your thermometer is off. I had that problem and solved it with a glass stick thermometer with a stainless sheath to keep me from breaking it. At the very least you should check yours against ice water, boiling water and as close to mash temp as possible. The last step is more difficult as you need a second thermometer to check against and I find the hot tap water a good source of water for the test. Just let the tap run over the thermometers and see what they read. This may solve all your problems but

Aerating the wort will help with lots of problems. I did 3 different brews the same weekend when I started. 2 came out tolerable and one was a disaster. Had thermometer problems and one brew stuck like yours did, one came out well, and one tasted terrible. Never have figured out why the one went off. I suspect it was water related and have taken steps to not repeat the disaster. I have not read anyone having similar problems so would not recommend jumping into water unless you get the same results with the second brew. Then the easy way to check is to brew a darker beer.

In your case I would check the thermometer and make sure you are pitching good healthy yeast into aerated wort.

 

[crundle]

I was finding my initial brews were thinner than others making the same recipe and dryer, then went and checked my glass thermometer, which was reading 102 degrees in a large pot of boiling water, and 2 degrees in a thick ice slurry. I adjusted my mash temps to compensate for this, and found that the beers were turning out much better. I now have an IKEA thermomenter and have found it to be accurate to the above two tests, so I don't have to compensate on temperatures anymore.

I would suggest checking the thermometer against the two figures you can nail down accurately, boiling water and a thick ice slurry. While you are at it, it is also prudent to measure your hydrometer against a solution of 1 litre of water at 20 degrees (or close to, as below this there is little or no compensating for temperature necessary) and 130 grams of white table sugar for a 1.050 reading, or 26 grams for a 1.010 reading.

With these two checks, you will be able to compensate for your equipment against a set recipe. More importantly, you will be able to get repeatable results, which will allow you to tweak your system far more effectively than taking guesses as to what to change.

I did this at Pat's bidding, and the results have been fantastic. I now know that my hydrometer is quite accurate, and that my new thermometer is also (so was the other, if I subtracted 2 degrees).

From there, I was able to eliminate these areas as potential variables in my process, and was able to chase down my efficiency woes to not having enough initial volume of water to extract the sugars from the grain. Now that is sorted I have been hitting all of my gravity and temp targets, and can now begin to tweak my methods to suit different beer styles. I only have 8 brews under my belt, but feel more in control than before.

Crundle

 

[Bribie G]

I find my probe thermometer from Ross is brilliant. Lets face it 'tweaking' the mash temps usually involves only a four or five degree range; for example I've been doing stouts and UK Best Bitters over 66 degrees (up to 68) and Aussie darks and ales at 63-64 and without an accurate thermo I wouldn't have a hope in Hell, really.