Sounds like you got the kosher stuff. Round bottom is better but double sew all the seams. I have a pillowcase design but it hangs like a giant pair of dog's knackers whereas the round bottom hangs like a teardrop. Round one for me next time.
A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag
- Thread starter PistolPatch
- Start date
Help Support Australia & New Zealand Homebrewing Forum:
I personally thing the "swiss voil " thing is creating unnecessary confusion. The problem is is the true voil is very fine cotton (doesn't work, my wife had some so i tried it) and some clever marketing person has called a poly product swiss voil to sell more of the stuff. So only shops that stock that particular brand are going to have swiss voil and even spotlight doesn't necessarily have the same stock in every store.
I have made several BIAB bags (and lots of hop bags). I go to the net curtain remnant bin at spotlight (but any curtain/fabric shop will have net curtaining) and choose white sheer net curtaining (polyester or nylon? - not sure but doesn't really matter if it meets the requirements- keeps grain in, lets wort out and strong enough) with as fine a weave as possible. I usually pay $2-3 for a remnant (usually1-1.5M wide & about 2M Long - sometimes they have tape at the top which I retain if the remnant is wide enough and makes the top of the bag a bit stronger). They have all worked well and the leftover from the BIAB bag makes great hop bags.
rgds mike
Hi all
I have now done several K&K brews plus some grain steeping and hops additions. So far all is good but I am ready to have a crack at my first All Grain beer using the BIAB method and NoChill.
I realise this will be a learning experience and the chance of getting a good beer first go are slim so I am prepared to take that. As such I am using a very simple recipie. However, any information anyone would like to give me will hopefully increase the chance of a decent beer.
I intend to have a crack at a standard English Bitter as I have some of the ingredients already and it seems a simple beer to start with.
My recipe goes:
4kg of Pale malt
700g and Crystal malt
30gr of Norther Brewer @ 60 mins 7% AA
20 Grams of Goldings @ 20 min 4.5% AA
20 Grams of Goldings @ 5 mins 4.5 AA
25 Grams Dry Hop into cube for 1 week during No Chill storage
Wirfloc
English SafAle yeast
I hope anyone may be able to correct me and answer some questions or comment on my thoughts.
My Equipment:
- Stainless steel cooking pot 50ltr
- 3 ring burner with normal regulator
- Swiss Voile BIAB Bag and 2 hops bags of Swiss Voile
- A 15mm piece of granite to put under the burner so it does burn my wife photo studio floor
- Food grade (heat resistant) piece of pipe to take hot wort into cube as I have not tap on the pot
- All the normal brewing gear used for a K&K eg scales, spoon etc
- Hanging rack to hang bag of pot after mash and to drip into pot.
How much water to a start with?
I am thinking 33ltr
Why?:
Total grain = 4.7 kg and I assume a loss of 0.7ltr per kg of grain = 3.3 ltr
Loss to Boil (15%): 33*.15 = 5ltr
Loss to bottom of pot trub and bottom of pot: 2ltr (complete guess!!!!)
33 3.3 5 2 = 22.7
BINGO ..I have 23ltr apprx into my cube
Mash Temp?
65-67 degrees. Intend to get the water to 70 and then adding the grain to the bag hopefully bringing the temp to the desired range. I intend to moderate the temp by turning the flame on my burner down and check temp often.
Efficiency?
I have no idea what this will be but hope to start to get to know my system.
pH levels in boil?
Given I am a beginner and this could be a hectic day for me do you think it is worth worrying about the boil pH or should this wait until I have more experience?
I am in Inner South West Sydney and think the water is OK and it has been in my brews to date. I have a water filter installed and use the water from this for my beer which removes the Chlorine nicely. There is a big difference between tap and filtered water.
Dry hopping?
I am adding 15gr Dry hops cause I want some aroma.
Can I just add the dry hopping hops into the cube for the No Chill or does it have to go in the fermenter? It will be in no Chill cube for about 1 week.
No-Chill
I will cube the beer for 1 week and then ferment.
My method of transferring hot wort into the cube is quite manual.
I have a 2m length of heavy food grade tubing (heavier than the standard clear stuff you see) that I will insert all but about 20cm of the end into the hot wort. I will then plug the protruding end and then grab the hose and put it in the cube and remove the plug. Hopefully this will make a flow provided I have the lowest point of the hot wort higher than the highest point of the cube. I will put the output end under the level of the wort once I get some in their.
Secondary ferment
Will rack beer from 1st fermenter back into cube for secondary fermenting and conditioning then use original fermenter for bulk priming, then bottle
Hopefully I can share some of the lessons I learn as an inexperienced first time AG BIAB brewer with other first timers.
I have now done several K&K brews plus some grain steeping and hops additions. So far all is good but I am ready to have a crack at my first All Grain beer using the BIAB method and NoChill.
I realise this will be a learning experience and the chance of getting a good beer first go are slim so I am prepared to take that. As such I am using a very simple recipie. However, any information anyone would like to give me will hopefully increase the chance of a decent beer.
I intend to have a crack at a standard English Bitter as I have some of the ingredients already and it seems a simple beer to start with.
My recipe goes:
4kg of Pale malt
700g and Crystal malt
30gr of Norther Brewer @ 60 mins 7% AA
20 Grams of Goldings @ 20 min 4.5% AA
20 Grams of Goldings @ 5 mins 4.5 AA
25 Grams Dry Hop into cube for 1 week during No Chill storage
Wirfloc
English SafAle yeast
I hope anyone may be able to correct me and answer some questions or comment on my thoughts.
My Equipment:
- Stainless steel cooking pot 50ltr
- 3 ring burner with normal regulator
- Swiss Voile BIAB Bag and 2 hops bags of Swiss Voile
- A 15mm piece of granite to put under the burner so it does burn my wife photo studio floor
- Food grade (heat resistant) piece of pipe to take hot wort into cube as I have not tap on the pot
- All the normal brewing gear used for a K&K eg scales, spoon etc
- Hanging rack to hang bag of pot after mash and to drip into pot.
How much water to a start with?
I am thinking 33ltr
Why?:
Total grain = 4.7 kg and I assume a loss of 0.7ltr per kg of grain = 3.3 ltr
Loss to Boil (15%): 33*.15 = 5ltr
Loss to bottom of pot trub and bottom of pot: 2ltr (complete guess!!!!)
33 3.3 5 2 = 22.7
BINGO ..I have 23ltr apprx into my cube
Mash Temp?
65-67 degrees. Intend to get the water to 70 and then adding the grain to the bag hopefully bringing the temp to the desired range. I intend to moderate the temp by turning the flame on my burner down and check temp often.
Efficiency?
I have no idea what this will be but hope to start to get to know my system.
pH levels in boil?
Given I am a beginner and this could be a hectic day for me do you think it is worth worrying about the boil pH or should this wait until I have more experience?
I am in Inner South West Sydney and think the water is OK and it has been in my brews to date. I have a water filter installed and use the water from this for my beer which removes the Chlorine nicely. There is a big difference between tap and filtered water.
Dry hopping?
I am adding 15gr Dry hops cause I want some aroma.
Can I just add the dry hopping hops into the cube for the No Chill or does it have to go in the fermenter? It will be in no Chill cube for about 1 week.
No-Chill
I will cube the beer for 1 week and then ferment.
My method of transferring hot wort into the cube is quite manual.
I have a 2m length of heavy food grade tubing (heavier than the standard clear stuff you see) that I will insert all but about 20cm of the end into the hot wort. I will then plug the protruding end and then grab the hose and put it in the cube and remove the plug. Hopefully this will make a flow provided I have the lowest point of the hot wort higher than the highest point of the cube. I will put the output end under the level of the wort once I get some in their.
Secondary ferment
Will rack beer from 1st fermenter back into cube for secondary fermenting and conditioning then use original fermenter for bulk priming, then bottle
Hopefully I can share some of the lessons I learn as an inexperienced first time AG BIAB brewer with other first timers.
hairyson
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 2/10/08
- Messages
- 74
- Reaction score
- 4
Hi tumi,
we've recently (last night!) made the decision to measure loss to evaporation as a rate, rather than a percentage. With our setup, and at a rolling boil (rather than a very vigorous boil), we gauge that we lose about 5.5 litres per hour to steam. For a 60 minute boil starting with 33 litres, this gives 5.5/33 * 100 = 16.7% evaporation. So your guess at 15% isn't far off our calcs
If you do shorter or longer boils, or start doing larger batches, then you might consider the rate calcs instead. For example, for a 60 minute boil starting with 50 litres, losses to evaporation are 11%. We assume loss to kettle and trub of ~2l, but loss to grain ~1l/kg. We've yet to measure the loss to grain accurately (only just bought the scales to handle it), but it fits the results at the end of the mash. You can get differences here by squeezing the bag, or letting it drip for a long time.
I can't really comment on the rest. Have a good one!
PistolPatch
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 29/11/05
- Messages
- 2,717
- Reaction score
- 44
Good luck with your first one tumi and you can fully expect to brew a great beer first up.
Your evap calcs are a bit out and you should really allow greater losses to trub (say 4lts) to make things easy on yourself. Without going into any detail, you'd be a bit better off with a 90 minute boil starting off with say 37lts. This will get you closer.
There is no problem with using your proposed 33lts but you will almost certainly need to use top up water.
Your first priority though on your first 5 or so brews should be getting your original gravity correct. Once you can do this, it is an easy matter to get volumes right and at a level that makes life easy and give you clear beer into your fermenter. Leaving just a little trub in the kettle will certainly improve your efficiency figures on the surface but not in reality as the wort you are putting into the fermenter won't be as clear as it should be.
Good on you,
Pat
Your evap calcs are a bit out and you should really allow greater losses to trub (say 4lts) to make things easy on yourself. Without going into any detail, you'd be a bit better off with a 90 minute boil starting off with say 37lts. This will get you closer.
There is no problem with using your proposed 33lts but you will almost certainly need to use top up water.
Your first priority though on your first 5 or so brews should be getting your original gravity correct. Once you can do this, it is an easy matter to get volumes right and at a level that makes life easy and give you clear beer into your fermenter. Leaving just a little trub in the kettle will certainly improve your efficiency figures on the surface but not in reality as the wort you are putting into the fermenter won't be as clear as it should be.
Good on you,
Pat
flattop
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 28/10/08
- Messages
- 863
- Reaction score
- 2
PP is sort of right about evap rates BUT it really depends on how strong a boil you can get. My urn (Crown) doesn't get as good a boil as the Birko or a gas burner and pot so i find my evap rates are less, they also differ indoor and outdoor and with changes in ambient air temp. I use a 33L starting point and usually finish with about 21-23 Litres in the fermenter.
BTW don't get hung up on a 23L finish as it's not important in AG, you make the volume to suit the target gravity not to suit the size of your fermenter.
Anyhow as PP said, starting with a lower volume means you can always top up but making the wort too weak means you have to lengthen the boil time to get the SG right.
It's far easier to pour water in than boil it off.
Wet grain would probably be 10-15k as you start with 5k dry and then soak it.
Not sure how your siphoning will go but consider straining or better yet filtering the wort before cubing, can be done with a nylon stocking over the hose end....
This will help keep your wort clearer into the cube.
Good luck and don't forget to update the register when you are done...
Dry hop into your secondary not your cube.
BTW don't get hung up on a 23L finish as it's not important in AG, you make the volume to suit the target gravity not to suit the size of your fermenter.
Anyhow as PP said, starting with a lower volume means you can always top up but making the wort too weak means you have to lengthen the boil time to get the SG right.
It's far easier to pour water in than boil it off.
Wet grain would probably be 10-15k as you start with 5k dry and then soak it.
Not sure how your siphoning will go but consider straining or better yet filtering the wort before cubing, can be done with a nylon stocking over the hose end....
This will help keep your wort clearer into the cube.
Good luck and don't forget to update the register when you are done...
Dry hop into your secondary not your cube.
pdilley
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- 1/3/09
- Messages
- 1,393
- Reaction score
- 31
I was at about 34lt with 5kg of Muntons malt, but I also squeezed and drained the buggary out of the bag after being done and poured a decent amount of liquid back in plus another litre of water for the boil. I had a rolling boil but not a fire and brimstone all hell breaks loose boil session. When done, I hit the top of the no chill cube almost spot on so I was chuffed.
With 1st BIAB don't get down on yourself. Go along for the ride and learn the process without stressing yourself. Save the hitting targets for you next few down the road.
Cheers,
Brewer Pete
EDIT: Racking into a cube works great. Might want to use kitchen baking glove if you have a small diameter tube and need to hold your racking cane for an extended period of time to drain your pot into the cube.
With 1st BIAB don't get down on yourself. Go along for the ride and learn the process without stressing yourself. Save the hitting targets for you next few down the road.
Cheers,
Brewer Pete
EDIT: Racking into a cube works great. Might want to use kitchen baking glove if you have a small diameter tube and need to hold your racking cane for an extended period of time to drain your pot into the cube.
Thirsty Boy
ICB - tight shorts and poor attitude. **** yeah!
- Joined
- 21/5/06
- Messages
- 4,544
- Reaction score
- 106
I see precisely and absolutely nothing about your process that I would change.
Your thought process and conclusions are exactly spot on - given your equipment I would do almost exactly what you propose.
You may lose a fraction more to trub than yu have proposed - but thats it. You dont fix that by adding more water, you fix it by increasing everything about your recipe proportionally. I wouldn't worry about it though - you dont know your efficiency or boil off rate or anything yet - so its a voyage of discovery for you.
You have picked a Bitter as your beer, which I think is a great choice for a first beer - because the results will all still be good. If you get less extraction than you though (or decide you want to dilute for more volume) then you get an Ordinary Bitter - if its a bit stronger you get an ESB. So you can happily brew away, find out the things you dont know about your system on the fly and plug that knowledge back into your next brew.
Well done, you seem to have pretty thoroughly researched how to manage this process and obviously have a grasp of the mechanics and principles, you will brew fine beer.
Don't change a thing - leave that for next time.
TB
oh - and as for pH - its mash pH you need to worry about (worrying about boil pH is "advanced" brewing by any definition) and even mash pH .... give yourself half a dozen brews before you even look at it.
Your thought process and conclusions are exactly spot on - given your equipment I would do almost exactly what you propose.
You may lose a fraction more to trub than yu have proposed - but thats it. You dont fix that by adding more water, you fix it by increasing everything about your recipe proportionally. I wouldn't worry about it though - you dont know your efficiency or boil off rate or anything yet - so its a voyage of discovery for you.
You have picked a Bitter as your beer, which I think is a great choice for a first beer - because the results will all still be good. If you get less extraction than you though (or decide you want to dilute for more volume) then you get an Ordinary Bitter - if its a bit stronger you get an ESB. So you can happily brew away, find out the things you dont know about your system on the fly and plug that knowledge back into your next brew.
Well done, you seem to have pretty thoroughly researched how to manage this process and obviously have a grasp of the mechanics and principles, you will brew fine beer.
Don't change a thing - leave that for next time.
TB
oh - and as for pH - its mash pH you need to worry about (worrying about boil pH is "advanced" brewing by any definition) and even mash pH .... give yourself half a dozen brews before you even look at it.
simulation credit auto
I like where this thread is going. But I do not feel creative enough to contribute at this time.
I like where this thread is going. But I do not feel creative enough to contribute at this time.
So yesterday I did my first AG as per my post earlier, using the BIAB method. Thanks to all who responded to my original post as I took the info onboard and it certainly helped. I have taken a lot from this forum over the last few months and contributed little. The least I can now do is share my experiences from my first AG BIAB beer. Hopefully sharing my experience may assist any new brewers who wish to have a crack at this. I can honestly say that it really isnt that hard..
This is a long post and hopefully useful to someone out there.
With the beer transferred from the cube to the fermenter on today it is now a waiting game. The day was 80% success 20 % dismal failure. But importantly I have learnt from all of it and know confidently that I can do this easily in the future. It looks like I have myself a new hobby and I have also convinced my assistant for the day to get on board. We are now going to share cost of equipment, effort and bounty.
Targets for the day
23 ltr into cube and fermenter
1039 OG
No burns or fires
A happy wife who will let me use her studio in the future
Mash
This went so well that I actually spent most of the time reading the paper and chilling out as you would want on a hung over Sunday morning.
I did a 90 minute mash with 37 ltr of starting water thanks to Pistol Peter who recommended this. It took a fair while for the water temp to reach 69 degs. I would definitely start this earlier next time. Once it reached the temp I added 4.7 kg of grain with no sticking or clumping whatsoever.
I turned the flame off and wrapped the pot up with a curtain I found lying around in my wife food photography studio. Mistake number 1 wifey was not too happy. I expected a few degs decrease due to the grain but didnt get that at all.
I measured and agitated the wort every 5 minutes or so for the first hour and it dropped at most one degree to 68. I then let it go for 10 minute intervals and after about 1 hour I had only lost another 1 degree. So after the 90 minute mash I lost at very most 3 degrees and didnt have to light the flame of the burner at all. Was pretty stoked about this. It is a quality stainless steel 50ltr pot that I have used over the years for making my yearly tomato sauce and stocks.
So after 90 mins the heat to boil began and I took a gravity reading.
Into boil reading was:
1020 @ 67 degrees Temp adjusted = 1040
Volume was 33.5 ltr so I lost 3.5 ltr to 4.7kg of grain. This equals .74 ltr lost per kg which is pretty much what I was prepared for.
I had wanted a lower mash temp (65 67) and just assumed I would loose more temp than I did but it is good to know my pot retains heat so well. I will not start at such a high temp next time.
Bag Sparging
I hung the bag directly over the pot on my wifes lighting stand. This worked very well and I squeezed the life out of the bag using some pot lids and hands once it cooled. I got a fair bit from doing this.
In the end I thought the steam from the heating wort may be slowing me draining more so I moved the bag to the side and squeezed some more. It was now quite syrupy liquid coming out. Next time I think I would use another litre or 2 of hot water for helping me extract this. I would just factor that into my original water calculations. Anyway the grain was pretty dry by the time I finished this but I know I could get more pretty easily.
Boil
It took about 20 mins to get the wort to a soft even boil which was held by turning off the middle ring of my three ring burner.
I had read that you have to wait for the hot break before putting my first bittering hops in and starting my 60 minute boil timings. I waited for about 20 mins and didnt see any hot break only froth which was skimmed often. I will definitely be a skimmer, the skum didnt taste good and with experience making base stocks I couldnt dream of leaving that stuff in the wort. After 20 minutes I couldnt spot a hot break, mind you I didnt know what I was trying to spot so I went ahead and added my first 20gr hops sock of Northern Brewer.
Within 2 minutes I had a hot break, it is easy to spot, little bits of coagulated white stuff that is distinguishable from general froth.
Was the hot break due to the hops addition or did I just not wait long enough?
The boil was pretty smooth with no sight of boilovers and consistent removal of froth. Hops additions went to plan.
I kept an eye on the volume and by the end of the 90 minute boil I ended up with exactly 23.5 ltr into the cube. Happy with that!!!
Therefore, I had 3 litres lost to trub in the kettle.
33.5 3 = 30.5
23.5 litres into cube 30.5 - 23.5 = 7 litres of water to the boil evaporation. This equals about 18 % loss to evaporation which is 3% more than I had allowed for.
Whirfloc went in with 15 mins to go.
Boil Ends
I made a good solid whirlpool and then the 2 of us lifted the pot onto the bench and placed the cube on a stool at a lower lever to the pot ready for the transfer from pot to cube.
Did a Whirlpool rest for 15 mins and was amazed at how much stuff dropped out.
But here is where it all went pear shaped.
Transfer to cube
One poster warned me that my hose may melt and after putting it in the wort for the drain to cube it very quickly softened and kinked rather than smoothly winding around the base of the pot. I knew immediately it was not going to work so I removed the tube and threw it in the bin. Im pretty sure I got it out fast enough before and leeching or melting of plastic occurred. frustrating, it had all gone so well till now!!!!!
So we jumped into action to come up with another method of transfer. Fortunately I was in my wifes food photography studio with a kitchen so I grabbed a funnel and 2 of us managed to very carefully angle the pot on the bench and pour the liquid into the cube. So Im afraid the wort definitely has HSA, not that I know what that is or what it means. Hopefully infection will not occur. I did sanitize the funnel and everything else.
The liquid going into the cube was much clearer than I would have thought. Much clearer than any kit beer I have done. It was also very easy to see when to stop the drain into the cube and leave the trub in the pot.
I left about 2 litres in the pot which was less than I had expected.
Unfortunately, I forgot to take a temperature reading of wort in the cube before I closed the lid on it so I dont know what the OG was then. I took a guess and it turned out to be 1036 adjusted at an estimated temp. A bit lower than I wanted but too late to do anything about.
Transfer to fermenter from cube
The next day I drained from the cube to the fermenter by simply opening the tap of the cube and letting it splash into the fermenter. Then pitched the yeast at 20 degrees.
I was surprised how much sediment had settled out in the little feet of the cube. I left about another 1 or 1.5 litres of trub in the cube.
Does this mean I didnt whirlpool rest enough?
I ended up with 21 litres in the fermenter which is 2 litres shy of my target. Oh well..!!
So in total I lost about 3 to 4 litres of water to trub including in the kettle and the cube.
The wort into the cube was very clear and disturbingly thin. This surprised/ worried me and I expected a gravity reading would be even lower than 1036. Worried that I missed my OG target by a fair way I took another reading it was on 1039!!!
So my target was 1039 and my OG into fermenter at 20 degrees was 1039. Very happy with that!!!!!!
Taste
I tasted at many stages throughout the process, a habit from years of cooking. Unfortunately, I am not happy with the taste and am afraid after such a successful (bar a few issues) day the product is not one Im happy with. It was very very bitter when I tasted it immediately after the boil ended. I dont think I will use Northern Brewer hops again. The initial taste is quite malty and nice but the after taste is very bitter. Im talking about not drinkable bitterness.
I tasted it again when it went into the fermenter a day later and the maltyness had increased a little and the bitterness had decreased significantly. It was still very bitter on the aftertaste but no where near as bitter as it was after the boil.
If anyone has any ideas on how I should save this then please let me know.
I used:
- 25 grams of Northern Brewer @ 7% AA for 60 mins.
- 20 g of Goldings @ 4.5 AA for 20 mins
- 20gr of Goldings @ 4.5% AA for 5 mins.
Did I just use way to much hops?
I was going to dry hop but have now decided not to.
So to sum this experience up:
- I learnt a great deal
- It is not as difficult as it sounds when overloaded with information from the forums.
- I will have another crack at it soon
- The two of us had enough fun to decide to spend some $ on a good pot with a tap in it.
Efficiency
No idea what this is but if someone can help me calculate this it would be great. I can give the figures. I just dont know how to do this calculation myself. The Porter book hasnt helped me figure this out and my maths is not that good.
Despite the end result being questionable I am happy with the way the day went and can easily see this being a successful hobby in the future. Hopefully I will get a better tasting beer later. My assistant is hooked also so I now have a person to help with the work and costs.
Thanks to all in the forum, the info I got in here is 100% responsible for me having a crack at AG brewing with not much experience or knowledge.
I hope this post isnt too long for what this thread is about.
This is a long post and hopefully useful to someone out there.
With the beer transferred from the cube to the fermenter on today it is now a waiting game. The day was 80% success 20 % dismal failure. But importantly I have learnt from all of it and know confidently that I can do this easily in the future. It looks like I have myself a new hobby and I have also convinced my assistant for the day to get on board. We are now going to share cost of equipment, effort and bounty.
Targets for the day
23 ltr into cube and fermenter
1039 OG
No burns or fires
A happy wife who will let me use her studio in the future
Mash
This went so well that I actually spent most of the time reading the paper and chilling out as you would want on a hung over Sunday morning.
I did a 90 minute mash with 37 ltr of starting water thanks to Pistol Peter who recommended this. It took a fair while for the water temp to reach 69 degs. I would definitely start this earlier next time. Once it reached the temp I added 4.7 kg of grain with no sticking or clumping whatsoever.
I turned the flame off and wrapped the pot up with a curtain I found lying around in my wife food photography studio. Mistake number 1 wifey was not too happy. I expected a few degs decrease due to the grain but didnt get that at all.
I measured and agitated the wort every 5 minutes or so for the first hour and it dropped at most one degree to 68. I then let it go for 10 minute intervals and after about 1 hour I had only lost another 1 degree. So after the 90 minute mash I lost at very most 3 degrees and didnt have to light the flame of the burner at all. Was pretty stoked about this. It is a quality stainless steel 50ltr pot that I have used over the years for making my yearly tomato sauce and stocks.
So after 90 mins the heat to boil began and I took a gravity reading.
Into boil reading was:
1020 @ 67 degrees Temp adjusted = 1040
Volume was 33.5 ltr so I lost 3.5 ltr to 4.7kg of grain. This equals .74 ltr lost per kg which is pretty much what I was prepared for.
I had wanted a lower mash temp (65 67) and just assumed I would loose more temp than I did but it is good to know my pot retains heat so well. I will not start at such a high temp next time.
Bag Sparging
I hung the bag directly over the pot on my wifes lighting stand. This worked very well and I squeezed the life out of the bag using some pot lids and hands once it cooled. I got a fair bit from doing this.
In the end I thought the steam from the heating wort may be slowing me draining more so I moved the bag to the side and squeezed some more. It was now quite syrupy liquid coming out. Next time I think I would use another litre or 2 of hot water for helping me extract this. I would just factor that into my original water calculations. Anyway the grain was pretty dry by the time I finished this but I know I could get more pretty easily.
Boil
It took about 20 mins to get the wort to a soft even boil which was held by turning off the middle ring of my three ring burner.
I had read that you have to wait for the hot break before putting my first bittering hops in and starting my 60 minute boil timings. I waited for about 20 mins and didnt see any hot break only froth which was skimmed often. I will definitely be a skimmer, the skum didnt taste good and with experience making base stocks I couldnt dream of leaving that stuff in the wort. After 20 minutes I couldnt spot a hot break, mind you I didnt know what I was trying to spot so I went ahead and added my first 20gr hops sock of Northern Brewer.
Within 2 minutes I had a hot break, it is easy to spot, little bits of coagulated white stuff that is distinguishable from general froth.
Was the hot break due to the hops addition or did I just not wait long enough?
The boil was pretty smooth with no sight of boilovers and consistent removal of froth. Hops additions went to plan.
I kept an eye on the volume and by the end of the 90 minute boil I ended up with exactly 23.5 ltr into the cube. Happy with that!!!
Therefore, I had 3 litres lost to trub in the kettle.
33.5 3 = 30.5
23.5 litres into cube 30.5 - 23.5 = 7 litres of water to the boil evaporation. This equals about 18 % loss to evaporation which is 3% more than I had allowed for.
Whirfloc went in with 15 mins to go.
Boil Ends
I made a good solid whirlpool and then the 2 of us lifted the pot onto the bench and placed the cube on a stool at a lower lever to the pot ready for the transfer from pot to cube.
Did a Whirlpool rest for 15 mins and was amazed at how much stuff dropped out.
But here is where it all went pear shaped.
Transfer to cube
One poster warned me that my hose may melt and after putting it in the wort for the drain to cube it very quickly softened and kinked rather than smoothly winding around the base of the pot. I knew immediately it was not going to work so I removed the tube and threw it in the bin. Im pretty sure I got it out fast enough before and leeching or melting of plastic occurred. frustrating, it had all gone so well till now!!!!!
So we jumped into action to come up with another method of transfer. Fortunately I was in my wifes food photography studio with a kitchen so I grabbed a funnel and 2 of us managed to very carefully angle the pot on the bench and pour the liquid into the cube. So Im afraid the wort definitely has HSA, not that I know what that is or what it means. Hopefully infection will not occur. I did sanitize the funnel and everything else.
The liquid going into the cube was much clearer than I would have thought. Much clearer than any kit beer I have done. It was also very easy to see when to stop the drain into the cube and leave the trub in the pot.
I left about 2 litres in the pot which was less than I had expected.
Unfortunately, I forgot to take a temperature reading of wort in the cube before I closed the lid on it so I dont know what the OG was then. I took a guess and it turned out to be 1036 adjusted at an estimated temp. A bit lower than I wanted but too late to do anything about.
Transfer to fermenter from cube
The next day I drained from the cube to the fermenter by simply opening the tap of the cube and letting it splash into the fermenter. Then pitched the yeast at 20 degrees.
I was surprised how much sediment had settled out in the little feet of the cube. I left about another 1 or 1.5 litres of trub in the cube.
Does this mean I didnt whirlpool rest enough?
I ended up with 21 litres in the fermenter which is 2 litres shy of my target. Oh well..!!
So in total I lost about 3 to 4 litres of water to trub including in the kettle and the cube.
The wort into the cube was very clear and disturbingly thin. This surprised/ worried me and I expected a gravity reading would be even lower than 1036. Worried that I missed my OG target by a fair way I took another reading it was on 1039!!!
So my target was 1039 and my OG into fermenter at 20 degrees was 1039. Very happy with that!!!!!!
Taste
I tasted at many stages throughout the process, a habit from years of cooking. Unfortunately, I am not happy with the taste and am afraid after such a successful (bar a few issues) day the product is not one Im happy with. It was very very bitter when I tasted it immediately after the boil ended. I dont think I will use Northern Brewer hops again. The initial taste is quite malty and nice but the after taste is very bitter. Im talking about not drinkable bitterness.
I tasted it again when it went into the fermenter a day later and the maltyness had increased a little and the bitterness had decreased significantly. It was still very bitter on the aftertaste but no where near as bitter as it was after the boil.
If anyone has any ideas on how I should save this then please let me know.
I used:
- 25 grams of Northern Brewer @ 7% AA for 60 mins.
- 20 g of Goldings @ 4.5 AA for 20 mins
- 20gr of Goldings @ 4.5% AA for 5 mins.
Did I just use way to much hops?
I was going to dry hop but have now decided not to.
So to sum this experience up:
- I learnt a great deal
- It is not as difficult as it sounds when overloaded with information from the forums.
- I will have another crack at it soon
- The two of us had enough fun to decide to spend some $ on a good pot with a tap in it.
Efficiency
No idea what this is but if someone can help me calculate this it would be great. I can give the figures. I just dont know how to do this calculation myself. The Porter book hasnt helped me figure this out and my maths is not that good.
Despite the end result being questionable I am happy with the way the day went and can easily see this being a successful hobby in the future. Hopefully I will get a better tasting beer later. My assistant is hooked also so I now have a person to help with the work and costs.
Thanks to all in the forum, the info I got in here is 100% responsible for me having a crack at AG brewing with not much experience or knowledge.
I hope this post isnt too long for what this thread is about.
PistolPatch
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Well done tumi and your post is not too long - there should be more of them with such detail. You have done a great report.
You said you had 80% success and 20% failure. I've had a few reads of your post and can't see the failure side. Can you let us know what bit/s caused you a worry?
Congrats on your first AG mate and double-thanks for your report :super:
Pat
You said you had 80% success and 20% failure. I've had a few reads of your post and can't see the failure side. Can you let us know what bit/s caused you a worry?
Congrats on your first AG mate and double-thanks for your report :super:
Pat
Well what I got out was the taste was not what was expected and a few glitches in the process. Sounds normal to me.
For the taste issue I am in the USA so did not deal with converting the hop amounts. I can say if you were planning on dry hopping then go ahead. Dry hopping will not add to the bitterness, they only add flavor and aroma. The bitterness will age out if it is from the hops. Give a sample, when it is done, to someone who brews and see what they think. I find that raw brews taste much more bitter then when they turn into beer. In fact I am not sure tasting wort will give you an indication of what the final beer will taste like. A good example of this is our last brew. We used cinnamon in the mash as recommended by Charley Papazion. It had a very big cinnamon taste and smell out of the kettle. By the time the yeast worked it over the cinnamon was gone and it placed 3rd in a home brew competition.
The hose issue can be solved by following others advice and using silicon hose.
And to answer the question about the whorl pool. It is hard to make it work if you disturb the kettle. Having to pour the wort into the cube I am surprised you did not get much more.
I also understand that if you skim you are removing what makes the hot break. That could be why you got break after you added the hops. By skimming you delayed the process enough that adding the hops triggered a reaction with what material was left. But I have never done what you did so this is only a guess. It could also be that your boil was a bit low.
Thirsty Boy
ICB - tight shorts and poor attitude. **** yeah!
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Tumi - your day sounds pretty good - slight glitch with the transfer to the cube, but you improvised and did it well.
Your losses
- remember, you boiled for an extra 20min ... so you didn't lose 18% (this is a per hour figure) you lost about 13.5% per hour and so it would have been more like 5.25L in 60 mins - say 5.5 if you give yourself 5mins to wait for the break and then boil for 60min.
- you lost a little less to kettle trub becuae you skimmed and you used hop socks - what you skimmed off didn't end up in the bottom of the kettle, nor did any hop material. 2 ish litres sounds about right considering. Calculate for 4 next time anyway... then tweak it down after you see a trend developing.
- The stuff in your cube... If as you say, you transferred clear wort from the kettle into the cube - then the majority of what you found on the bottom of your cube would have been cold break. It isn't present in hot wort (still dissolved) You can transfer crystal clear wort to your cube & it will still form as the cube cools down. Not many people worry about getting cold break in the fermenter. Really fussy lager brewers separate it - but most commercial and home brewers just put it right in the fermenter. You can too and that will get you back a couple of litres.
Efficiency -- cant tell you without a lot of detail about what grain you used, volumes at various stages etc etc ... but I can tell you this. You aimed for 23L in the fermenter @ 1.039 and if you had put in the 1.5L of coldbreak etc from the cube.. you would have had 22.5L @ 1.039 - and that means that you pretty much hit your numbers on the head. That means that recipes from that source are perfect for your system (so far) and thats all you really need efficiency figures for - to help you adjust recipes for use on your system.
Well done on your first brew.
TB
PS - unfermented wort always tastes a lot more bitter than the beer that results. A lot of that bitterness is going to stay behind in the fermenter. Wait for the actual beer before you make a judgement. You have about 30IBU in a not very strong beer - so it is going to be quite bitter tasting. But should not be in undrinkable territory
Your losses
- remember, you boiled for an extra 20min ... so you didn't lose 18% (this is a per hour figure) you lost about 13.5% per hour and so it would have been more like 5.25L in 60 mins - say 5.5 if you give yourself 5mins to wait for the break and then boil for 60min.
- you lost a little less to kettle trub becuae you skimmed and you used hop socks - what you skimmed off didn't end up in the bottom of the kettle, nor did any hop material. 2 ish litres sounds about right considering. Calculate for 4 next time anyway... then tweak it down after you see a trend developing.
- The stuff in your cube... If as you say, you transferred clear wort from the kettle into the cube - then the majority of what you found on the bottom of your cube would have been cold break. It isn't present in hot wort (still dissolved) You can transfer crystal clear wort to your cube & it will still form as the cube cools down. Not many people worry about getting cold break in the fermenter. Really fussy lager brewers separate it - but most commercial and home brewers just put it right in the fermenter. You can too and that will get you back a couple of litres.
Efficiency -- cant tell you without a lot of detail about what grain you used, volumes at various stages etc etc ... but I can tell you this. You aimed for 23L in the fermenter @ 1.039 and if you had put in the 1.5L of coldbreak etc from the cube.. you would have had 22.5L @ 1.039 - and that means that you pretty much hit your numbers on the head. That means that recipes from that source are perfect for your system (so far) and thats all you really need efficiency figures for - to help you adjust recipes for use on your system.
Well done on your first brew.
TB
PS - unfermented wort always tastes a lot more bitter than the beer that results. A lot of that bitterness is going to stay behind in the fermenter. Wait for the actual beer before you make a judgement. You have about 30IBU in a not very strong beer - so it is going to be quite bitter tasting. But should not be in undrinkable territory
hairyson
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hmm, wise words. chuck a bottle over my way tumi.
actually, better make it a couple. I can never tell with just one
actually, better make it a couple. I can never tell with just one
Scruffy
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Wait...
...a few weeks in the bottle, then complain...
Your post made me impatient for the weekend... well done, mate!
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