A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Dextrous just means there are lots of dextrins - dextrins are not sweet.

Dextrins add body and mouthfeel to a beer by increasing its viscosity and palate weight.

Dextrins are sugars - and all sugars do the same thing - including the sweet ones. So a sweet beer will have body and mouthfeel from the sugars present.... but a beer with body and mouthfeel does not necessarily have to be sweet, because those characteristics might have come from non sweet dextrins.

If you wanted to (you almost certainly dont want to though) you could add saccharine or aspartame to your beer, both sugars that are very very sweet - and that would add lots of sweetness, but because you would use so little of the stuff to get your desired sweetness, it would add virtually no body and mouthfeel. So you could have a thin and very dry beer, with lots of sweetness. They are also unfermentable.

Balance in your beer - is about a three way balance between sweetness, bitterness and mouthfeel/body. To get it you need to do more than pay attention to mash temperatures - its about yeast choice and attenuation vs the attenuation limit of the wort, choice of base malts choice of specialty malts and any adjuncts you might use.

"Balance is the art of brewing" but that comes from the "Science of brewing".
GB

 

[PistolPatch]

Bizier: Yep, western drinks here in Oct at my place, eastern drinks in December at your place. Looking forward to both of them :beer:

Thirsty: Thanks mate. Think I get it now. I'll have to get someone to do a line-up of a thick dextrinous beer versus a thin sweet beer so as I have a good touchstone to accompany the theory

Nev: Go to bed - lol!

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Bizier: Yep, western drinks here in Oct at my place, eastern drinks in December at your place. Looking forward to both of them :beer:

Thirsty: Thanks mate. Think I get it now. I'll have to get someone to do a line-up of a thick dextrinous beer versus a thin sweet beer so as I have a good touchstone to accompany the theory

Nev: Go to bed - lol!

Two light mega beers, that way you know they are bone dry and quite thin to start with - add a table spoon of maltodextrin powder to one - one with a spoon of table sugar. That'll give you thick and sweet vs thick and not so sweet.

You want dry but sweet... try a duvel. Not "thin" (but no one wants that anyway) - certainly dry as a bone and still manages to be sweet upfront

Or drop an artificial sweetener tablet into the mega beer - it'll be nasty but you will learn something (mainly not to do it again...)

 

[LLoyd]

I thought I almost got it, with the first explanation Thirsty, but the last one loses me again.. :blink:

 

[PistolPatch]

Please Start Posting your Volumes and Efficiency Figures Here

Some months ago, ThirstyBoy sent me a great draft of BIAB FAQs that I had asked him to do for BIABrewer.info and of course, here on AHB. I have been re-writing, changing and worrying over them like an old woman since! Once published though, they will offer very good and detailed answers (11 A4 pages!) to very common BIAB questions.

The main problem I have been worrying over is water volumes and efficiency figures. These are big worries for those starting out so I would like to get a good average before publishing these FAQs. For those of you who do a bit of measuring, can you please start to put your details into Here"]the BIAB Brewer Register thread[/url]?

More info is in the above linked post.

I have never seen an attempt to gather such specific information from any category of brewer so it would be great to see the results as all brewers will learn something from them.

Thanking you in advance,
Pat

 

[Thirsty Boy]

Jeezus Pat - too much effort.

The new BIAB brewers -- they don't want this information. Just tell them what to do. Have you forgotten what it like to be a new brewer?? you dont want options -- you want a clear and concise set of instructions. " follow this and you will not go wrong..."

Just post the damn FAQs

New brewers will thank you - more experienced brewers will know where to look for their information anyway.

Stop ******* about and post those FAQs .. you are the guru ----- act like one dammit

 

[troopa]

Ouch TB LOL
i think its great that hes gone to so much detail
but 11 pages of information is getting to the point i think you guys should look at collaborating and publish a BIAB brew book though.. If palmers can release the bible for brewing traditionally then i think this needs to be released for modern day brewing

Tom

 

[troopa]

Hey i do have a question about water ratios though
Ive read a few times and more then once its been answered but its usually a passing question and answer and im sure its something that thirsty is certainly answering in his new book " BIAB Brewing for the Modern Day Lazy Brewer"

Ive seen it stated that water grain ratios of about 3:1 has been gaining a little bit more efficiency but certainly hasnt been costing any (either way im not fussed)
is there any detriment to brewing with less water to allow for several benefits

Like:
1: faster mash temps
2: faster boil times
3 Double batches in smaller pots (I have a 60L pot)

I did run my last single 23L batch at a 3:1 ratio last time and noticed that i cut nearly 1 hour of my brew day
I did find hitting mash temps more difficult when dropping grain into the pot though(temp dropped about 6-8 degrees.. but it was also about 14degs in the shed)
and holding Mash temp was a little harder.. i usually drop about 2-3 degrees but it dropped 4. Again this could of been ambient temp

I cant offer efficiency numbers though because i broke my hydrometer which is something im not too stressed about but will be getting a refractometer before my next brew

If its been answered in great thought and detail sorry for asking and if thirsty if you have answered this in your "Book" great but if this is still up in the air or has be explored more since the last few post ive seen on it then any answers would be great

Thanks Tom

 

[PistolPatch]

TB: My goodness! LOL.

New brewers treat figures written in guides as gospel and this is perfectly natural. I believe it is important to give as accurate a starting point as possible for new brewers and also to alleviate as much confusion as possible.

One example that must cause confusion is that i wrote in the original guide to start with 38 litres to achieve a 23 lt batch. This figure works well in a 70lt stock pot but I have been seeing formulas offered in this thread that suggest a much lower starting figure and this has caused problems for several brewers especially in the area of efficiency which relates in a way to Troopa's question above.

People only have to fill out a few figures in the form I linked in my post above. It won't take any time for them and I don't mind processing the figures so the only outcome I can see in doing this is better advice. (For example, I am not sure of what the correct starting volume should be for those who use keggles.)

Troopa: Unfortunateley knocking up a good quality book isn't that easy. The grunt work alone such as collecting accurate information takes some time. For now, I am trying to make the BIAB FAQs and a new guide compatible with Jamil and John Palmers, "Brewing Classic Styles," book. This will mean with a minimum of fuss any new brewer will be able to confidently brew using the recipes from that book. So you can look forward to that at least.

Tom, as for your question above. I think you must have read that 3:1 figure in a traditional brewing thread.

We might need a bit more info to answer your question properly as well as I am confused / unsure what you mean by faster mash temps and faster boil times etc. Do you mean making a more concentrated wort and then topping it up in the fermenter? If so, then your efficiency will suck.

To get reasonable efficiency to make any beer traditionally or via BIAB you need at some stage all your water contacting the grain. BIAB does this in one stage whilst traditional brewing does it in several stages. The end result is ALL that water ends up being heated and boiled. Any reduction in this amount of water will retard efficiency.

Using too little water can actually end up being a source of confusion for the new brewer. Efficiency drops so they think they have used too much water but in reality they haven't used enough to grab the sugars from the grain.

Does that make sense or have I missed your question completely - lol!


Pat

 

[troopa]

Yeah unfortunately it makes perfect sense Patch

Ok decided to go back through and re-read a couple of "BIAB water / grain ratio" threads and figured out it was mostly Reviled' posts from last year and i got my wires crossed ( http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=27704 )
Hes mashing in with less water and mashing out with hotter water

Reason for all this if you havnt already figured it out is that i have a 60L pot and want to start doing double batches as time constraints with a 1year old boy, house renos and blasted work im looking for a time saver

im happy to concede and get an 80L pot if there's no other way but id rather not and with the figures ive run i cant really see me getting a double 20L batches into a 60L pot and be able to stir the mash in at the same time

Tom

 

[reviled]

Yeah unfortunately it makes perfect sense Patch

Ok decided to go back through and re-read a couple of "BIAB water / grain ratio" threads and figured out it was mostly Reviled' posts from last year and i got my wires crossed ( http://www.aussiehomebrewer.com/forum/inde...showtopic=27704 )
Hes mashing in with less water and mashing out with hotter water

Reason for all this if you havnt already figured it out is that i have a 60L pot and want to start doing double batches as time constraints with a 1year old boy, house renos and blasted work im looking for a time saver

im happy to concede and get an 80L pot if there's no other way but id rather not and with the figures ive run i cant really see me getting a double 20L batches into a 60L pot and be able to stir the mash in at the same time

Tom

IMO, I reckon u can get away with double batches in a 60L pot and still get about 75% efficiency.. I only use a 30 litre pot and brew 20-22 litre batches and most of the time dont have to top up in the fermenter, allthough I have started to do a sort of a batch sparge in a seperate vessel which has given me more consistent results across different sized grain bills - where as before if I did a bigger beer and topped up in the vessel, without sparging, I would get a much lower efficiency...

edit : I have never gone as low as 3:1 ratio, but my biggest grist was 7.2kg in a 30 litre pot

 

[Damian44]

Im going to try High Gravity brewing next batch. It seems to solve a few problems.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php...Gravity_Brewing

 

[PistolPatch]

Damian44: Good link mate. The link at the bottom of that page to the BYOP article is a good read too. Make sure you put your figures into the BIAB Brewer Register (You too reviled!)

Troopa: reviled is doing it so have a crack at this high gravity brewing. Why not? It will be interesting to see the figures from it and will be great for a lot of brewers. I have a 70lt pot but still have to top up. I often do this during the boil after it settles down and more space becomes available. Sometimes I'll just do it in the fermenter. I haven't compared efficiency figures but certainly haven't noticed any problems.

Glad I understood your question correctly.

 

[reviled]

I brewed a scotch ale yesterday with a 6kg grist in my 30 litre pot, sparged with about 7litres of water, and got an OG of 1065 and 22 litres into the fermenter, probably 23/24 if you include all the trub and wort left behind...

Pretty happy with those numbers B)

 

[paulwolf350]

I did a BIAB for my first all grain on saturday, all went pretty well but I only got an efiiciency of about 60% so wort into fermenter was a bit low 1040 compared to a 1048 expected

Any ideas on what went wrong?

Paul

 

[Katherine]

I did a BIAB for my first all grain on saturday, all went pretty well but I only got an efiiciency of about 60% so wort into fermenter was a bit low 1040 compared to a 1048 expected

Any ideas on what went wrong?

Paul

Hey thats a great first effort...

 

[paulwolf350]

Hey thats a great first effort...

Thanks, I am pleased with the way it all went, but my mate who crushed my grain for me gets over 75% efficiency with his mash setup

Paul


edit this may be my problem too

Using too little water can actually end up being a source of confusion for the new brewer. Efficiency drops so they think they have used too much water but in reality they haven't used enough to grab the sugars from the grain.

I am currently using a 36L robinox pot for a 23 litre batch, after my mash I had only about 22- 23 litres which I topped up with more water that I rinsed my grain in (I thought I was low pre boil too, so i did a second rinse mash in another pot)

I am thinking I need more water in at the start so I end up with 26 litres after the mash and boil back to 23

what do you reckon

 

[crundle]

Thanks, I am pleased with the way it all went, but my mate who crushed my grain for me gets over 75% efficiency with his mash setup

Paul


edit this may be my problem too


I am currently using a 36L robinox pot for a 23 litre batch, after my mash I had only about 22- 23 litres which I topped up with more water that I rinsed my grain in (I thought I was low pre boil too, so i did a second rinse mash in another pot)

I am thinking I need more water in at the start so I end up with 26 litres after the mash and boil back to 23

what do you reckon

To end up with 23 litres of 1.054 in the fermenter (which will give me 21 litres of finished beer to keg and bottle), I start with 33 litres of water, with about 5.8 kg of grain. I lose roughly 2 litres to the grain (squeeze like buggery with thick rubber gloves on), then boil down to 26 litres before cubing, losing about 1.5 litres to hot break.

Even with this, I am thinking that I am a bit light on for starting water, but I am restricted by my urn being 40 litres, so about 33 + grain fills it up. I am thinking that if I could get to 38 litres of water initially, I might get better efficiency into the kettle and into the final packaging. For my first efforts, I only used 28 litres of water, and was getting woeful efficiency until PP got me to use more water to help with the extraction of sugars from the grain, and to stir more often during the mash.

If you have a 36 litre pot, you might have to settle for a slightly lower amount of water, perhaps 30-31 litres depending on the grain bill size, but get it as full as you can, it will make a difference, you may just have to boil longer/harder to get it down to the correct gravity. I take a sample of wort at the end of the mash and cool it in the freezer while the boil is starting, and then work out the final volume I am after based on that sample using beersmith.

cheers,

Crundle

 

[PistolPatch]

I did a BIAB for my first all grain on saturday, all went pretty well but I only got an efiiciency of about 60% so wort into fermenter was a bit low 1040 compared to a 1048 expected

Any ideas on what went wrong?

Paul

Congratulations Paul :icon_cheers:

There could be any number of things that went wrong and some of these might not even actually be wrong (e.g. faulty measuring equipment.) One of the silly things in brewing is that efficiency figures people talk about are not specified. Have a look at my post here and right at the bottom you will see I scored efficiencies of 83% and 53% on the same brew.

If the format of that post makes some sense to you, then post what figures you have in that thread and we can see if you have a real problem. If that format makes no sense (and this could well be the case if you are just starting in all-grain) then just post back here with how much grain you used and at what stage you took your measurements.

I think you'll find there is actually no real problem at all so relax and look forward to a great beer.

Good on you!
Pat

 

[PistolPatch]

For Those Considering High Gravity BIAB Brewing

Thanks Crundle for writing the details you have in Post #1238. Blokes like you that pass on such detailed, first-hand information are invaluable. I also know through my correspondence with you that I can trust your figures.

I answered a question of troopa's in this thread two days ago re low efficiency and while writing that answer I had Crundle in mind as his efficiency figures improved by using more initial water.

I was a bit surprised that the well-written articles on High Gravity Brewing linked a few posts above made no mention of efficiency adjustments. Have been thinking on this since and this afternoon I stupidly remembered that just because an article is in print, it doesn't mean it is right. The truth is that printed articles are often edited very poorly!

So, don't expect high gravity brewing to yield the same efficiency.

But, even if efficiency does drop for high gravity brewing, this is no major drama compared to the convenience. What is important, is to know how much to adjust by. So, anyone who tries this, please report your figures in the BIAB Brewer Register.

I've got my computer guy coming later in the week and so may be able to revive some old single batch stats and maybe some doubles from my old hard drive. I'll also be brewing four double-batches for the Australia's Biggest brew Day so I'll take some extra time to do as many measurements as I can.

For those of you interested in this statistical side, keep following the BIAB Brewer Register thread. What we are trying to do there is, as far as I know, a world-first so make sure you whack what figures you have in there when you can. All of us brewers will learn something from these figures, maybe even something surprising.

:beer: