A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag
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Yes, I have been having some variations in the amount of sweet wort I'm getting in the kettle prior to boiling and intend to weigh spent grain to see how much liquor it is carrying away. I realise that each kilo of malt grain is going to yield a lower weight of dry husk because much of it is, naturally, sacharrified and ends up in the wort. So as an experiment I'll actually dry it in a hot concrete area of the yard, should take less than a day then weigh it. Commercial breweries take this very seriously and now have huge membrane press thingos that literally squeeze every drop out of the mash, and I reckon it's worth getting a handle on what is happening with my own grain "bed".
It will also be interesting to see what the diff is between, say, 5k of Maris Otter and the resulting spent dry husks.
PistolPatch
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My goodness, I haven't done a post on AHB for at least 3 months - better make it a long one!
When You Are Starting Out, Do the Following...
Most of the following applies to any new AG brewer though I have flavoured it somewhat to suit the last few posts and BIAB generally.
Use Less Liquor (Water) on Your First Five Brews
The above applies to traditional brewers as well. Mantis, 37lts is actually a more realistic figure than 31lts for a 23lt batch of 5% ABV beer. BUT, you are better off starting with 3ilts on your first few brews. Whilst you are unlikely to end up with 23lts in your fermenter (unless you include a heap of trub) the gravity will be higher and so you can just top up your fermenter with tap water to the correct Original Gravity. OG is what is important...
Ignore Efficiency Figures and Focus on Original Gravity.
Basically a lot of bullshit is written on nearly all brewing figures. There are countless threads on AHB that show how even our major brewing software does not even correctly describe something that should be as basic as brewhouse efficiency. What hope does a new AG brewer have?
What I describe as brewhouse efficiency and what another brewer may describe as efficiency and what a brewing program may describe as efficiency can vary by more than 40% on exactly the same brew!!! Most people quoting an efficiency figure don't even know this problem exists!
An experienced brewer has gone through this terrible confusion but by this stage knows their equipment and the produce. An experienced brewer, when copying a recipe, will ignore any quoted efficiency figure and will focus on the Original Gravity that will have been quoted in the recipe.
(Tip: For those struggling with the computer programs etc and efficiency when copying recipes, set your batch size for 27lts and your brewhouse efficiency for 75%. This will get you in the ballpark for a 23lt batch. For some stupid reason that no brewer understands, Beersmith etc brewhouse efficiency figures do not adjust for losses to trub and chiller. My goodness!)
Following the, "Use Less Liquor," tip above will help you get to know your equipment sooner. Adding water to a brew at any stage is easier than subtracting it!
Get Accurate Measuring Equipment
The same people that quote you what they think are accurate efficiency figures (I used to do it too) are the same people that probably have one hydrometer and one thermometer.
I have had over 15 thermometers and hydrometers. I have seen variances between these of over 4 degrees at mash temp and 7 points in FINAL gravity (same wort)!!! So, don't trust your measurement equipment unless you have tested it against an accurate source. Most accurate hydrometers I have seen (i.e. they read the same) are the French ones. The only accurate basic thermometers I have had are the stainless steel, "curved," red alcohol thermometers. And I now have found an accurate digital thermometer!
If you have an efficiency problem and are following the basic brewing guidelines, whether you brew BIAB or traditional, the problem will most likely be a dodgy thermometer. Make sure you have good measuring equipment.
Stop Measuring and Start Tasting!
Hopefully now you have started to stop thinking about efficiency etc!
The first thing that a new AG brewer should be focussed on is taste. Do you like the beer? Is the recipe good?
If you have a good recipe then you are on a winner.
If you taste your beer and don't like it, don't blame that on efficiency. If you have a crap beer at 65% efficiency, it will still be crap at 85%! (A 5%ABV ale recipe brewed at 3% with a few tweaks can be outstanding.)
How Should I Help Other New Brewers?
a) Make Sure You Have an Accurate Hydrometer and Thermometer - When you are confident in your hydrometer and thermometer then you should buy a second one. If necessary, calibrate these to the originals. Put your originals in storage so as when the secondaries fail, you have something accurate to calibrate against. Until you have done this, you can't even hope to hand on helpful figures to a third party.
B) Stop Quoting Figures Without Qualification - Once you have the above, then go and buy, "Brewing Classic Styles," by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer. On page 40-41, you will see that they have qualified, somewhat, what they mean by the efficiencies quoted in their recipes. Everyone should do that.
c) Hand on the Knowledge of Why Figures Should Not Be A God - When someone gets worried about figures, get them back to the basics. Question their measuring equipment. If they claim an efficiency, what do they mean? (I have two brew rigs and nearly always brew side by side at the same time. I find it impossible to get two similar readings during the brew as others who have brewed at my home will testify. For this reason I concentrate on what goes into the fermenter. Even then, the results can be a little surprising. How is your source measuring their efficiency?)
d) Be Aware that It is Easy to Get the Results We Want - Take enough measurements and one will always agree with what you want. Try measuring your efficiency from pre-boil to into fermenter. Get a friend to help you. You'll be surprised!
f) Question the Basics - Don't believe everything you read. If someones says their efficiency went up by 5% by doing such and such, ask them if they repeated the exercise 5 times with each method. Measuring differences in efficiency at the home brew level on one brew is ridiculous. Even on 5 brews it is untrustworthy. It is also a pointless exercise. If you want to increase efficiency at any level by 5%, you are obviously not focussed on brewing a truly brilliant beer.
Three other questions that you can ask the brewer who claims ultra-high efficiencies are, "Did you measure pre or post-boil?" "Did you no-chill?" (In no-chill, all the break goes into the primary vessel.) "Did you immersion chill or counter-flow?" (Once again, with the latter, all the break goes into the fermenter.) There are a lot more questions than these three.
Anyway, I hope the above helps new brewers stop worrying about figures and start to concentrate on beers (recipes) they love.
I have six beers on tap at home. I like all the beers but I am only one third of the way to having six beers I REALLY love on tap. I'd actually be really surprised if I got there in the next five or ten years. All I know for now is that worrying about figures will not be the thing that finds me that next beer I REALLY love.
Spot ya,
Pat
When You Are Starting Out, Do the Following...
Most of the following applies to any new AG brewer though I have flavoured it somewhat to suit the last few posts and BIAB generally.
Use Less Liquor (Water) on Your First Five Brews
The above applies to traditional brewers as well. Mantis, 37lts is actually a more realistic figure than 31lts for a 23lt batch of 5% ABV beer. BUT, you are better off starting with 3ilts on your first few brews. Whilst you are unlikely to end up with 23lts in your fermenter (unless you include a heap of trub) the gravity will be higher and so you can just top up your fermenter with tap water to the correct Original Gravity. OG is what is important...
Ignore Efficiency Figures and Focus on Original Gravity.
Basically a lot of bullshit is written on nearly all brewing figures. There are countless threads on AHB that show how even our major brewing software does not even correctly describe something that should be as basic as brewhouse efficiency. What hope does a new AG brewer have?
What I describe as brewhouse efficiency and what another brewer may describe as efficiency and what a brewing program may describe as efficiency can vary by more than 40% on exactly the same brew!!! Most people quoting an efficiency figure don't even know this problem exists!
An experienced brewer has gone through this terrible confusion but by this stage knows their equipment and the produce. An experienced brewer, when copying a recipe, will ignore any quoted efficiency figure and will focus on the Original Gravity that will have been quoted in the recipe.
(Tip: For those struggling with the computer programs etc and efficiency when copying recipes, set your batch size for 27lts and your brewhouse efficiency for 75%. This will get you in the ballpark for a 23lt batch. For some stupid reason that no brewer understands, Beersmith etc brewhouse efficiency figures do not adjust for losses to trub and chiller. My goodness!)
Following the, "Use Less Liquor," tip above will help you get to know your equipment sooner. Adding water to a brew at any stage is easier than subtracting it!
Get Accurate Measuring Equipment
The same people that quote you what they think are accurate efficiency figures (I used to do it too) are the same people that probably have one hydrometer and one thermometer.
I have had over 15 thermometers and hydrometers. I have seen variances between these of over 4 degrees at mash temp and 7 points in FINAL gravity (same wort)!!! So, don't trust your measurement equipment unless you have tested it against an accurate source. Most accurate hydrometers I have seen (i.e. they read the same) are the French ones. The only accurate basic thermometers I have had are the stainless steel, "curved," red alcohol thermometers. And I now have found an accurate digital thermometer!
If you have an efficiency problem and are following the basic brewing guidelines, whether you brew BIAB or traditional, the problem will most likely be a dodgy thermometer. Make sure you have good measuring equipment.
Stop Measuring and Start Tasting!
Hopefully now you have started to stop thinking about efficiency etc!
The first thing that a new AG brewer should be focussed on is taste. Do you like the beer? Is the recipe good?
If you have a good recipe then you are on a winner.
If you taste your beer and don't like it, don't blame that on efficiency. If you have a crap beer at 65% efficiency, it will still be crap at 85%! (A 5%ABV ale recipe brewed at 3% with a few tweaks can be outstanding.)
How Should I Help Other New Brewers?
a) Make Sure You Have an Accurate Hydrometer and Thermometer - When you are confident in your hydrometer and thermometer then you should buy a second one. If necessary, calibrate these to the originals. Put your originals in storage so as when the secondaries fail, you have something accurate to calibrate against. Until you have done this, you can't even hope to hand on helpful figures to a third party.
B) Stop Quoting Figures Without Qualification - Once you have the above, then go and buy, "Brewing Classic Styles," by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer. On page 40-41, you will see that they have qualified, somewhat, what they mean by the efficiencies quoted in their recipes. Everyone should do that.
c) Hand on the Knowledge of Why Figures Should Not Be A God - When someone gets worried about figures, get them back to the basics. Question their measuring equipment. If they claim an efficiency, what do they mean? (I have two brew rigs and nearly always brew side by side at the same time. I find it impossible to get two similar readings during the brew as others who have brewed at my home will testify. For this reason I concentrate on what goes into the fermenter. Even then, the results can be a little surprising. How is your source measuring their efficiency?)
d) Be Aware that It is Easy to Get the Results We Want - Take enough measurements and one will always agree with what you want. Try measuring your efficiency from pre-boil to into fermenter. Get a friend to help you. You'll be surprised!
f) Question the Basics - Don't believe everything you read. If someones says their efficiency went up by 5% by doing such and such, ask them if they repeated the exercise 5 times with each method. Measuring differences in efficiency at the home brew level on one brew is ridiculous. Even on 5 brews it is untrustworthy. It is also a pointless exercise. If you want to increase efficiency at any level by 5%, you are obviously not focussed on brewing a truly brilliant beer.
Three other questions that you can ask the brewer who claims ultra-high efficiencies are, "Did you measure pre or post-boil?" "Did you no-chill?" (In no-chill, all the break goes into the primary vessel.) "Did you immersion chill or counter-flow?" (Once again, with the latter, all the break goes into the fermenter.) There are a lot more questions than these three.
Anyway, I hope the above helps new brewers stop worrying about figures and start to concentrate on beers (recipes) they love.
I have six beers on tap at home. I like all the beers but I am only one third of the way to having six beers I REALLY love on tap. I'd actually be really surprised if I got there in the next five or ten years. All I know for now is that worrying about figures will not be the thing that finds me that next beer I REALLY love.
Spot ya,
Pat
flattop
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Bribie is right, I got a crown urn last year, but due to an invasion of relatives and then an infected fermenter, a change of job and hot weather, (and my mate who was going to sew my bag up hasn't done it yet due to the fires) i haven't done my first BIAB (and i'm spitting chips about it). In fact i threw a brew on today (k&k) that is only my 2nd brew for the year. Those who know me know that's unusual....
However, i did use the urn to sterilize some glass bottles so the missus could make plum jam. I didn't time the boil but i don't remember it being terribly slow, i was quite impressed with the urn in general, although i did break a glass bottle in it and spend hours looking for the splinters.
The crown cost me about $220 delivered from evilbay.
Pistol, i agree with the sentiments you post, efficiency is probably great if you think in scales of economics, for me the important thing is how it tastes....
I don't care about if i got the stats right as long as it's good beer. However i am yet to make a really great beer!
However, i did use the urn to sterilize some glass bottles so the missus could make plum jam. I didn't time the boil but i don't remember it being terribly slow, i was quite impressed with the urn in general, although i did break a glass bottle in it and spend hours looking for the splinters.
The crown cost me about $220 delivered from evilbay.
Pistol, i agree with the sentiments you post, efficiency is probably great if you think in scales of economics, for me the important thing is how it tastes....
I don't care about if i got the stats right as long as it's good beer. However i am yet to make a really great beer!
Mantis
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You are right PP, with the 31L start I barely ended up with 19L in the fermenter and that was at the expected OG
I did my second one today, a weizen with 5.8kg of grain and started with 35L. Looking like about 25L in the cube which is what I wanted.
Funny how this one only dropped 10L and the first one with less grain dropped 12L. Maybe the wheat malt does soak up as much as barley. Or maybe I boiled the first one to rapidly.
Will be interesting to see what the OG of this one is tommorow
I did my second one today, a weizen with 5.8kg of grain and started with 35L. Looking like about 25L in the cube which is what I wanted.
Funny how this one only dropped 10L and the first one with less grain dropped 12L. Maybe the wheat malt does soak up as much as barley. Or maybe I boiled the first one to rapidly.
Will be interesting to see what the OG of this one is tommorow
Summary of posts 351 - 400 in this thread:
Maxt retires from BIAB, citing poor attenuation as a reason for going the whole hog.
Dr K recommends some stuff, namely Trevira CS as the bag material after not noting that we've already found Voille to be more than adequate. He also recommends a liquor-grist ratio of 3:1, and is shot down in flames.
Thirsty Boy explodes, the detonation visible from space. This is closely followed by a large, muffled 'Whump!' sound.
Insulation is deemed unnessecary by PP, he recommends just turning the burner/element on for a few minutes instead. For those of us with gas burners, insulation is noted as a fire hazard.
Full volume mashing is unanimous [sic]. PP strongly advocates agitating the bag every five minutes or so to help achieve reasonable efficiency.
Spills Most of It tests cardboard insulation with his element setup. It works very well. He also invents and trademarks 'DunkSparge'; the process of dunking the bag of spent grain into a bucket of hot water repeatedly to sparge it. This is aided by squeezing the bag inbetween dunks.
Poor attenuation blamed on traditional yeast choices, with Nottingham being a prime culprit. US-56 advocated by King of Spain.
Post summary introduced by PP as thread is fast becoming unweildy.
Cheers - boingk
Maxt retires from BIAB, citing poor attenuation as a reason for going the whole hog.
Dr K recommends some stuff, namely Trevira CS as the bag material after not noting that we've already found Voille to be more than adequate. He also recommends a liquor-grist ratio of 3:1, and is shot down in flames.
Thirsty Boy explodes, the detonation visible from space. This is closely followed by a large, muffled 'Whump!' sound.
Insulation is deemed unnessecary by PP, he recommends just turning the burner/element on for a few minutes instead. For those of us with gas burners, insulation is noted as a fire hazard.
Full volume mashing is unanimous [sic]. PP strongly advocates agitating the bag every five minutes or so to help achieve reasonable efficiency.
Spills Most of It tests cardboard insulation with his element setup. It works very well. He also invents and trademarks 'DunkSparge'; the process of dunking the bag of spent grain into a bucket of hot water repeatedly to sparge it. This is aided by squeezing the bag inbetween dunks.
Poor attenuation blamed on traditional yeast choices, with Nottingham being a prime culprit. US-56 advocated by King of Spain.
Post summary introduced by PP as thread is fast becoming unweildy.
Cheers - boingk
Mantis
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I got truely woefull effeciency on the wheat beer yesterday. Today I pitched the yeast and took an OG and got 1043 and for only 21.5L in the fermenter.
Was expecting 25L at 1050
Mucking with Beersmith gives me 50% effeciency.
And just to top this off, I pithed US-05 yeast instead of the dry wheat yeast I just got last week
I should have had a coffee first to wake up
EDIT: On reflection, this is the first mash that I havent stirred often. I just dumped the grain in stirred to wet it all and left it for an hour.
All the other BIAB partials I have stirred a lot and got the efficiencies I wanted.
Just a clumbsy attempt really :angry:
Was expecting 25L at 1050
Mucking with Beersmith gives me 50% effeciency.
And just to top this off, I pithed US-05 yeast instead of the dry wheat yeast I just got last week
I should have had a coffee first to wake up
EDIT: On reflection, this is the first mash that I havent stirred often. I just dumped the grain in stirred to wet it all and left it for an hour.
All the other BIAB partials I have stirred a lot and got the efficiencies I wanted.
Just a clumbsy attempt really :angry:
Under PP's instruction and own incentive we have always hit original gravity and at least 20litres into the fermenter. From memory our first double batch was pretty close also. Our beer is pretty good not fantastic but good (its all gone)... We start brewing in March. Good to see you on the AHB again PP.......
Thirsty Boy
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He talks a lot - but he comes out with some lovely things occasionally
PP wrote
And sager words are seldom written.
If you are getting less than 70% measured at pre-boil - then there may well be a little something wrong with your process - above that, its all gravy. You are doing everything right, its just whether you can be bothered to tweak for better efficiency. I'm with Pat.... tweak for better beer instead.
Pat - when you have all six taps pouring beer you love, let me know cause I am booking a ticket to the west and will be over for drinkies.
When I have six beers I love on tap - the devil will iceskate through the gates of hell and surrender to Barack Obama
TB
PP wrote
And sager words are seldom written.
If you are getting less than 70% measured at pre-boil - then there may well be a little something wrong with your process - above that, its all gravy. You are doing everything right, its just whether you can be bothered to tweak for better efficiency. I'm with Pat.... tweak for better beer instead.
Pat - when you have all six taps pouring beer you love, let me know cause I am booking a ticket to the west and will be over for drinkies.
When I have six beers I love on tap - the devil will iceskate through the gates of hell and surrender to Barack Obama
TB
reviled
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Can anyone remind me how much volume a kg of grain takes up? Is it a litre or more??
Im doing a Belgian rye this weekend and ive realised im really pushing the limitations of my pot, im going to try a 3:1 mash ratio.. I know my efficiency will suck but if I can make beer ill be happy... Im using about 7kgs of grain, will that take up about 7 litres of kettle space or more??
Cheers
Im doing a Belgian rye this weekend and ive realised im really pushing the limitations of my pot, im going to try a 3:1 mash ratio.. I know my efficiency will suck but if I can make beer ill be happy... Im using about 7kgs of grain, will that take up about 7 litres of kettle space or more??
Cheers
I am still yet to do my first BIAB, and you can look at my hypotheses accordingly.
I am still stuck on the traditional grist/water ratio thing, and I wanted to know if anyone has done similar to the following:
1. Mash at close to traditional grist ratio until conversion complete
2. Add cold water (maybe with direct heat applied simultaneously) to reach half volume, measure.
3. Add remaining water and raise to mash-out temp, measure
4. Adjust preboil if necessary
Any thoughts?
Is there directly negative consequences to cooling the mash e.g. activating unwanted enzymes?
I am still stuck on the traditional grist/water ratio thing, and I wanted to know if anyone has done similar to the following:
1. Mash at close to traditional grist ratio until conversion complete
2. Add cold water (maybe with direct heat applied simultaneously) to reach half volume, measure.
3. Add remaining water and raise to mash-out temp, measure
4. Adjust preboil if necessary
Any thoughts?
Is there directly negative consequences to cooling the mash e.g. activating unwanted enzymes?
reviled
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IMO a ratio of about 4:1 is best for BIAB, and I wouldnt go adding cold water to the mash, that wont be cool cos youll drop the temp of your mash activating different enzymes, but then youre going to have to heat the mash even more if youre wanting to get to mash out temp..
Is there a reason you want to use less water? Whats your pot size??
Im using a 3:1 ratio this weekend, but only cos of equipment limitations, and I know that my efficiency will suffer greatly from it, but hey thats life..
Is there a reason you want to use less water? Whats your pot size??
Im using a 3:1 ratio this weekend, but only cos of equipment limitations, and I know that my efficiency will suffer greatly from it, but hey thats life..
SpillsMostOfIt
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Yep.
Why bother? It sounds like a lot of extra rigmarole to me for questionable gains.
I think that the simplicity of the process is wonderful. If you want to pfaff about with the process, do so, but do yourself the *justice* of doing it The One True Way once or twice so you know what you're playing with and can move on from there.
With regard to the liquor:grist thing, BIAB breaks a whole bunch of Home-brewing Science. Do not fear the voile. Embrace the baggie.
reviled
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ROFL, quote of the day :lol:
Do not fear the voile. Embrace the baggie.
Great one except for the home brewing science part. I like science and believe that BIAB does break the rules but not the science. Much easier to believe the science is right and the rules are wrong. Besides any home brew rule BIAB proves wrong will not be the first one shown to be wrong.
Great one except for the home brewing science part. I like science and believe that BIAB does break the rules but not the science. Much easier to believe the science is right and the rules are wrong. Besides any home brew rule BIAB proves wrong will not be the first one shown to be wrong.
I think I constantly set myself up for over complicating things. Once I get a place and settle, I think I am going to have the most complex system available just to satisfy my curiosity, a system so overly complex that I cannot over think it. Probably will either be infected because of amount of components, or taste like mega swill anyway.
But for now I will breathe deeply and contemplate your zen wisdom oh master SMOI. That makes me want to sing the Monkey theme: "born from an egg on the mountain top.."
Maybe we could get Edward de Bono to write a book about "The Mesh Bag Method" I am sure he'd be totally down with that.
I will embrace existing BIAB technique and then phaff as I please thereafter.
But for now I will breathe deeply and contemplate your zen wisdom oh master SMOI. That makes me want to sing the Monkey theme: "born from an egg on the mountain top.."
Maybe we could get Edward de Bono to write a book about "The Mesh Bag Method" I am sure he'd be totally down with that.
I will embrace existing BIAB technique and then phaff as I please thereafter.
Not being a three vessel brewer I don't know much about what a 'normal' mash consistency should look like in terms of grist to liquor but I do remember reading in The Art of Brewing 1861 that Continental Lager brewing was described by the author as 'thick mash' brewing, which suggests that UK mashes of the time had more liquor than the continental variety. This would make sense if they were doing parti-gyle brewing. In Australia where home brewing developed in a predominantly lager culture maybe the 'thick mash' thingo came to be regarded as the norm.
It would be interesting to see what some of the UK three vessel AGers think about mash consistency as they come from a predominantly ale tradition.
It would be interesting to see what some of the UK three vessel AGers think about mash consistency as they come from a predominantly ale tradition.
SpillsMostOfIt
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I agree entirely. We simply use different terminology - it's probably a hemispherical thing.
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