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A Guide To All-grain Brewing In A Bag
- Thread starter PistolPatch
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chappo1970
Piss off or Buy Me A Beer
Materials only about $200 but that's buying all new materials. The be honest I haven't kept account as the steel was a left over form a project. All the other bits I had in the shed. I am a self confessed hoarder of useful junk. If you scrounged around a few demo yards you could pick up the steel, bits and pieces cheaper. The steel frame wouldn't need to be 65x65x1.6 size either more likely 50x25 would do the job nicely. Probably the most important and the most expensive item is the sliding door boggies @ $35 each. The pulleys which are ball bearing raced where $8.95 each. Castor wheel picked up at the maket $15 for 4. It's actually quite a simple design and has only taken about 2hrs so far to make.
Chap Chap
Chap Chap
When Chappo and Sully arrive with the beast I'm going to strap them to chairs and, after plying them with strong drink, they can watch a brew at least till the end of the dunk sparge, after which of course the boil is the same as a 3V or any other system. With the dunk sparge I don't actually reserve any strike water, I use extra water... sorry liquor...and end up with - theoretically - a bit too much wort at the start of boil.
However with the Birko, a 60 min boil was filling the cube nicely at the end of the day, but a 90 min boil was losing a bit too much to evaporation during a good rolling boil. A couple of times I topped up with boiling water then thought "hey this water would be better used for sparging" and I saw on the forum that some guys were doing just that.
I do the odd 60 min boil still, for example with a small grain bill doing a can o coopers heretic FES and also with dark milds where I feel it gives a 'fresher' grain character but nearly always do 90 mins, and even up to 2 hours with lager malts / maize in case of DMS.
So from Chappo's POV with a more dilute wort at the start of boil, could it have a marginal effect on hop utilisation I wonder? Although I believe that Chappo is now into 90 min boils on Sherman anyway.
Edit: and Chappo can finally get to hug my doonah :wub:
However with the Birko, a 60 min boil was filling the cube nicely at the end of the day, but a 90 min boil was losing a bit too much to evaporation during a good rolling boil. A couple of times I topped up with boiling water then thought "hey this water would be better used for sparging" and I saw on the forum that some guys were doing just that.
I do the odd 60 min boil still, for example with a small grain bill doing a can o coopers heretic FES and also with dark milds where I feel it gives a 'fresher' grain character but nearly always do 90 mins, and even up to 2 hours with lager malts / maize in case of DMS.
So from Chappo's POV with a more dilute wort at the start of boil, could it have a marginal effect on hop utilisation I wonder? Although I believe that Chappo is now into 90 min boils on Sherman anyway.
Edit: and Chappo can finally get to hug my doonah :wub:
chappo1970
Piss off or Buy Me A Beer
I'm hoping Bribie will have the opportunity to brew one of his AABC (winning
h34r: ) entries on the rig.I'm hoping beer karma blesses me this weekend Katie....
Yup. I can't wait, compared to the current system:
Whenever I stand on the chair to fit the rope to the skyhook I'm sure the neighbours are tempted to call the Police and Lifeline, so big stress relief all round
reviled
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I like it B)
Ive allways thought about a BIAB rig, I would probably go 3v personally with the kettle, sparge bucket, and hlt just for conveniance and cos of my batch sparge step... Ive also considered the recirculating in BIAB Chappo and reckon it would be a wicked idea!
ATM im doing a mini batch sparge on the grain bed once I lift it out of the bag and put it into the sparge bucket, and then recirc a couple of times, I dont see why this couldnt be a recirculated fly sparge, you could even maybe do it with a mix of the bulk wort from the kettle and water from an hlt :blink: ?????? hmmmm.. The plot thickens...
Ive allways thought about a BIAB rig, I would probably go 3v personally with the kettle, sparge bucket, and hlt just for conveniance and cos of my batch sparge step... Ive also considered the recirculating in BIAB Chappo and reckon it would be a wicked idea!
ATM im doing a mini batch sparge on the grain bed once I lift it out of the bag and put it into the sparge bucket, and then recirc a couple of times, I dont see why this couldnt be a recirculated fly sparge, you could even maybe do it with a mix of the bulk wort from the kettle and water from an hlt :blink: ?????? hmmmm.. The plot thickens...
Pollux
RoachHaus Brewery
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mmmmm, with that info in mind I might contact the old man (he is also a compulsive hoarder, and he can weld) and we can have a chat about it, then it's just a matter of getting him to bring it with him next time he comes to Sydney.
OR
Find a fellow BIABer in Sydney who can weld and work together to make two in one day.
OR
Find a fellow BIABer in Sydney who can weld and work together to make two in one day.
hairyson
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The pot (98 litres) looks strangely small in this photo:
(I was trying to swing off the rope... ended up just falling down!)
You can also see our budget pot stand, budget bottle drying rack (bottom right), and my super budget beanie.
the bag looks impressively big in this photo (filled with 11kg grain, probably weighs about 20kg when we first haul it out):
We don't have any trouble with this weight in the bag. Just loop the rope around the bag a couple of times before hauling, in a half-hitch kind of way.
ben.
crundle
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How did you go for efficiency with an 11kg grain bill Benny? Did you use any sparge or just a squeezing of the bag? I am gathering it was a double batch, so you might have had more water initially anyway, just interested because when I did a single batch using 9kg of grain, my efficiency dropped considerably, even with a sparge step added.
Crundle
Crundle
hairyson
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Ha! Funny you should ask...
Yeh, it was a double batch, so we had something like 57 litres during the mash. I need to get some numbers off one of the other fellas to work it out properly, but I don't think it was too bad. There were some extenuating circumstances though: we screwed up a hydrometer reading. I kind of missed the main bit, but I think we misread the hydrometer, leading to wrong SG reading (after correction for temp), leading to miscalc of efficiency, leading to adding some extract (which was unneccesary), meaning an OG of 1070, when we were aiming for about 1060. I suppose back of the envelope we had about 60--65%...?
PistolPatch
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Chappo: I'm saving you until the end. Read my note to crundle first though
Benny: Thanks for the pics Benny. The pot does look small in the photo! BTW, instead of using the kid's hand puppets, you can get industrial rubber gloves from any hardware.
On top of your brew stand (did Chappo weld that up for you?) what are you using? The bottom bit of yours looks similiar to what I use which is some fire-rated stuff about 20mm thick. It has served me well for a few years now but started cracking a few months ago and has now fallen apart . I need a replacement.
crundle: It might take a few batches to get your figures right for doubles. I measured my last few doubles pretty carefully and found no difference in efficiency between those and my singles. I also used to spend ages trying to calculate the "exact" correction of hops to throw in for a double batch. Now I just double the recipe and this works very well. Different software can give you all sorts of different answers and these are not necessarily correct as butters referred to above.
One thing I found very interesting was a talk from the head brewer at Little Creatures. Really nice bloke who talked to us about hops. He's a pretty humble but very enthusiastic guy and works a fair bit on inutition when he is brewing something like Little Creatures Pale Ale. Why? Because he has to.
He explained that much of the hop science we have is very contradicitory and all of us had to agree with the science he pulled up. He uses the science as a base but continually assesses the end result of each batch using his mouth. Once again because he has to.
The availability and specs of the various hops he uses in LCPA are far from consistent. One batch might have a single flavour or aroma hop addition being made up of 20%/80% combination of 2 varieties of hops, a few months later it could well be something like a 30/30/30 combination of 3 varieties. From memory, their hops are stored at lagering temps, not freezer temps like we store ours so age adjustments have to be done as well.
So, onto Chappo....
Chappo: Having your own BIAB set-up to do small batches is a great idea but I don't think it is a great idea if your goal is to see if upping grain used in a recipe from 20% to 21% makes a magical difference. It won't of course. Same as if you add 23 grams of bittering hops instead of 22 grams at even 15% AA on a single batch. It won't make a magical difference and in a blind tasting, you'd be lucky if 1 in 50 people could pick it.
Little Creatures is a small brewery. Our set-ups are miniscule breweries. LC know that every LCPA they produce is a unique brew. In most areas (apart from the ability to freeze hops) they are way ahead of us miniscule brewers in the control area yet they accept this variance and make quite bold changes from batch to batch depending on what ingredients they have available at the time. (For example, using Galaxy instead of Amarillo.)
If LC can make major changes to a beer recipe then we miniscule brewers should have the confidence to do likewise.
What is their secret? Just a robust recipe. In fact, NRB's All Amarillo American Ale recipe is a slightly smoother version of LCPA and you can throw the hops around in that every which way and still get a brilliant yet distinctive beer.
What I am trying to say Chappo (and I know you love my long posts - lol) is that a pilot system should be used to test out brand new recipes that you have been unable to taste first-hand. If they taste great on your pilot, they will taste great on the Sherman.
If you get to taste a beer first-hand that is brilliant and trust the original brewer to give you an accurate ball-park recipe, then you should be able to brew double-batches of that beer straight away.
If it doesn't taste as great as you remember, then the recipe is not robust.
Gotta go now. Was just on the phone to Katie and I can't remember if she asked me where I was sleeping tomorrow night or if I wanted to sleep with her? Suppose I'll find out tomorrow. Lucky LloydieP doesn't read this thread.
Pat
Benny: Thanks for the pics Benny. The pot does look small in the photo! BTW, instead of using the kid's hand puppets, you can get industrial rubber gloves from any hardware
.On top of your brew stand (did Chappo weld that up for you?) what are you using? The bottom bit of yours looks similiar to what I use which is some fire-rated stuff about 20mm thick. It has served me well for a few years now but started cracking a few months ago and has now fallen apart
. I need a replacement.crundle: It might take a few batches to get your figures right for doubles. I measured my last few doubles pretty carefully and found no difference in efficiency between those and my singles. I also used to spend ages trying to calculate the "exact" correction of hops to throw in for a double batch. Now I just double the recipe and this works very well. Different software can give you all sorts of different answers and these are not necessarily correct as butters referred to above.
One thing I found very interesting was a talk from the head brewer at Little Creatures. Really nice bloke who talked to us about hops. He's a pretty humble but very enthusiastic guy and works a fair bit on inutition when he is brewing something like Little Creatures Pale Ale. Why? Because he has to.
He explained that much of the hop science we have is very contradicitory and all of us had to agree with the science he pulled up. He uses the science as a base but continually assesses the end result of each batch using his mouth. Once again because he has to.
The availability and specs of the various hops he uses in LCPA are far from consistent. One batch might have a single flavour or aroma hop addition being made up of 20%/80% combination of 2 varieties of hops, a few months later it could well be something like a 30/30/30 combination of 3 varieties. From memory, their hops are stored at lagering temps, not freezer temps like we store ours so age adjustments have to be done as well.
So, onto Chappo....
Chappo: Having your own BIAB set-up to do small batches is a great idea but I don't think it is a great idea if your goal is to see if upping grain used in a recipe from 20% to 21% makes a magical difference. It won't of course. Same as if you add 23 grams of bittering hops instead of 22 grams at even 15% AA on a single batch. It won't make a magical difference and in a blind tasting, you'd be lucky if 1 in 50 people could pick it.
Little Creatures is a small brewery. Our set-ups are miniscule breweries. LC know that every LCPA they produce is a unique brew. In most areas (apart from the ability to freeze hops) they are way ahead of us miniscule brewers in the control area yet they accept this variance and make quite bold changes from batch to batch depending on what ingredients they have available at the time. (For example, using Galaxy instead of Amarillo.)
If LC can make major changes to a beer recipe then we miniscule brewers should have the confidence to do likewise.
What is their secret? Just a robust recipe. In fact, NRB's All Amarillo American Ale recipe is a slightly smoother version of LCPA and you can throw the hops around in that every which way and still get a brilliant yet distinctive beer.
What I am trying to say Chappo (and I know you love my long posts - lol) is that a pilot system should be used to test out brand new recipes that you have been unable to taste first-hand. If they taste great on your pilot, they will taste great on the Sherman.
If you get to taste a beer first-hand that is brilliant and trust the original brewer to give you an accurate ball-park recipe, then you should be able to brew double-batches of that beer straight away.
If it doesn't taste as great as you remember, then the recipe is not robust.
Gotta go now. Was just on the phone to Katie and I can't remember if she asked me where I was sleeping tomorrow night or if I wanted to sleep with her? Suppose I'll find out tomorrow. Lucky LloydieP doesn't read this thread
.Pat
chappo1970
Piss off or Buy Me A Beer
PP I think you've taken me to literally but I apreciate what you have to say. Still nirvana would be a pitch more here and a poofteenth there which is near impossible. We will discuss Sunday while your hung over.
Love
Chap Chap
Love
Chap Chap
LLoyd
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You bastard Patch! When I offered to keep you company in Prague your first question was "How good a shag are you?" Are you just using me to get to my missus?
Well hell hath no fury like a Lloydie scorned...
Here goes slag, you asked for it... PISTOL PATCH TASTES SALTY!!! There now EVERYONE knows....
Lloydie :lol:
Well hell hath no fury like a Lloydie scorned...
Here goes slag, you asked for it... PISTOL PATCH TASTES SALTY!!! There now EVERYONE knows....
Lloydie :lol:
PistolPatch
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I'm glad to see you wrote, "Love," love, but you could have sent me a heads up that Lloydie actually reads this thread.
Yeah, I know that I took your post literally but I always like to err on the side that new brewers read this thread and they don't take things just literally.
Look at Lloydie's post below. I was happy to sleep with Katie but Lloydie has taken it totally the wrong way....
Lloydie, I only asked Katie if you were a good root so as I would know whether it was worth the time and effort in me courting that sister of yours. The photo you provided simply didn't cut it though I was prepared to let aesthetics slide. From the feedback that Katie gave me, I don't think I'll be slipping her down the Blue Danube with me let alone throwing my sausage down that hallway.
Sorry about that mate. We'll talk more tomorrow.
Pat
P.S. Pants, I am monitoring your thread - good stuff! Give it heaps.
Online Brewing Supplies
**** OBS ****
If you guy's miss-behave tomorrow on the deck I will have to show you the out doors sleeping area.LOL Right next to the cool room. Lots of beer but F..ing cold.For me its by the fire place!
Nev
Nev
nikgr
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Just a small contribution from one wanabe biab brewer .I think somebody asked for how to construct a rig for BIAB and I have found this link (propably you have found it allready) so you can inspired a bit to build something...
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...raumeister-200l
and also here it might be more clear photos
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/media/c...ter_200l_en.pdf
I hope this is gona be helpfull :icon_chickcheers:
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/shop_co...raumeister-200l
and also here it might be more clear photos
http://www.speidels-braumeister.de/media/c...ter_200l_en.pdf
I hope this is gona be helpfull :icon_chickcheers:
buttersd70
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Gold!
Seriously (or at least semi seriously), isn't this the same mob that makes that well expensive mash/fermentation system as used by James in 'Drink to Britain' ?
mwd
Awful Ale Apprentice
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Not quite that was the Brumas brewing machine The Mercedes Benz SL of homebrewing.
Ze Linkum Achtung Spitfiren
Ze Linkum Achtung Spitfiren
RdeVjun
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I'll say! I've always wanted my own gibbet though, looks like I'll have to build one...
Lots of 'purifying', hope it doesn't get confused with 'essential oil' craft and modded off!
Edit: And not a pillowcase to been seen anywhere. :blink:
Thirsty Boy
ICB - tight shorts and poor attitude. **** yeah!
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Isn't the circle a wonderful thing .. I'm not sure if this is the first or the second time this thread has come back around to the Braumeister.
Those units - or ones very like them - were the reason that BIAB was invented in the first place.
Someone said something along the lines of "hey, do you think there might be a way to brew all in one vessel?? .. maybe you could do a bucket inside a bucket thing??" someone else said "hey, the Europeans have been brewing beer this way for ages link to brewmeister and think that all of us who brew in 3 vessel units are mad" - someone else said... "yeah, but those things are 5000 friggin euros... I reckon you could do it with a couple of buckets, a pump and an electric element..." conversation ensues... then PP goes "wait a second... what if you used a polyester bag instead of an interior bucket..." and things take off from there.
BIAB was a conscious effort to emulate, in a simple cheap and accessible way - those very units that people linked to.
Which is why the myriad of "BIAB can't possibly work" arguments never quite made sense to me... this wasn't even a new idea or a new way of brewing... it was only ever a very clever and imaginative variation on an existing brewing technique. It managed to take several thousand euros and several levels of complexity away from the brewmeister... and yet do exactly the same thing.
I know its 80 pages long people... but seriously, if you are contemplating investing hundreds and hundreds of dollars into a purpose built BIAB rig... you might get some serious benefit from reading the whole of this thread and the pre-cursor threads it links to in the first few posts.
NOT - that that doesn't mean I don't like the BIAB rigs I have seen posted recently, I do!! But they are coming closer and closer to simply closing the circle.. which is kinda cool really.
TB
Those units - or ones very like them - were the reason that BIAB was invented in the first place.
Someone said something along the lines of "hey, do you think there might be a way to brew all in one vessel?? .. maybe you could do a bucket inside a bucket thing??" someone else said "hey, the Europeans have been brewing beer this way for ages link to brewmeister and think that all of us who brew in 3 vessel units are mad" - someone else said... "yeah, but those things are 5000 friggin euros... I reckon you could do it with a couple of buckets, a pump and an electric element..." conversation ensues... then PP goes "wait a second... what if you used a polyester bag instead of an interior bucket..." and things take off from there.
BIAB was a conscious effort to emulate, in a simple cheap and accessible way - those very units that people linked to.
Which is why the myriad of "BIAB can't possibly work" arguments never quite made sense to me... this wasn't even a new idea or a new way of brewing... it was only ever a very clever and imaginative variation on an existing brewing technique. It managed to take several thousand euros and several levels of complexity away from the brewmeister... and yet do exactly the same thing.
I know its 80 pages long people... but seriously, if you are contemplating investing hundreds and hundreds of dollars into a purpose built BIAB rig... you might get some serious benefit from reading the whole of this thread and the pre-cursor threads it links to in the first few posts.
NOT - that that doesn't mean I don't like the BIAB rigs I have seen posted recently, I do!! But they are coming closer and closer to simply closing the circle.. which is kinda cool really.
TB
nikgr
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I agree with you but isn't the same thing happen when someboby brews with a 3 vessel system ? First you have the stuff lying arround and when you mastered the techniques you are looking to rig all the stuff to something more "shiny", "cool" looking thing... Eventually the braumaister 200liter is a Brew In A Can system so I believe that someone steal the idea of some Biab Rigs form this forum .
Thirsty Boy
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Hey I'm not knocking anything that anyone is doing - just suggesting that a thorough read of this whole thread might save them some design headaches. A lot of this stuff has been tossed around in the past... and its fairly apparent that if you chuck enough stainless and other gadgets into BIAB.. you end up basically at the Braumeister. (witness chappo's suggestion about re-circulating BIAB systems) So if people are interested in traveling that road - well, the journey is a bit easier if you already have a good idea what the destination looks like.
A bit of patient searching of Euro home brewer forums will also turn up a bunch of home made versions of Braumeister type systems that could well spark an idea or two in the head of someone who was dedicated to the notion of making more (physically) solid and/or more "bling" the BIAB process.
Tryin' to help not hinder
My previous post was more introspection than anything else.
As for your last sentence - if you are suggesting that BIAB was an idea stolen from the Braumeister... well, it kinda was, sorta. If you are saying Braumeister pinched it from us... well nope, they were there first.
I'm not sure if there are actually three plates - or if the diagram is just meant to illustrate that they are adjustable ... only two "arrows" point to filter plates, a top and bottom, and the smaller 20 & 50L versions only have two plates.
If there are three - I think your guess about separating the mash might well be a good one
TB
nikgr
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Sory I it was'nt my intention to flame.I had no hard feelings for someone propably because my nature language is not English may be I became confused .My opinion is same as yours keep it simple but working.As for my last sentence I mean that the rig (pulley and base) used in braumeister 200liters maybe it is a copy from some people's rigs in this forum because braumeister 200liter is presented these days.
argon
firmitas, utilitas, venustas
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Got the first BIAB AG done on Sunday... did a little LCPA Clone, bit of rip off from the recipe Brown Dog put up a while back, with a few changes in the hops department to keep things simple and a bit cheaper (used 90g of Chinook cause it comes in 90g batches)
Batch Size 23L
Mash at 66C for 60mins
Boil 60mins
3.75 kg Pale Malt
1.00 kg Munich I
0.35 kg Wheat Malt
0.35 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine
40g Goldings, East Kent Pellets
5 g Chinook @ 60 min
30 g Cascade @ 20 min
30 g Cascade @ 10 min
10 g Chinook @ 5 min
50 g Chinook @ Flameout
25 g Chinook Dry Hop
US 05
The whole day went great, first time i've done a full volume and first time all grain. Also first time I gave the Keggle a run.
Bringing the water up to strike temp. Used the old stockpot to cover the cutout to keep the heat in.
Adding the grain
Mash Temp
Mashing away nicely. Note i didn't get the bag sewed up just got a couple of metres of swiss voile and layed it in the keggle. Cake rack in the bottom of course. Worked well enough. Next time i'll get it sewed up though, bit awkward holding the bag and giving the mash a bit of a stir.
Still mashing, gave the cars a wash while i waited, productive day really. dropped to 64 after about 40mins gave it a 10 min burst on the 3 ring to 68. Raised the temp to 72 for 10 mins after the 60 min mash. Extracted the grain into the stockpot. Added a couple of litres of boiled water from the kettle to sparge the grain, gave it a quick squeeze and added to the boil.
Suspended the hop sock from the Mash paddle. Got quite full, for the flameout addition I used a grain bag instead.
Didn't take any photos of the transfer, but after giving it a little manual whirlpool and letting it sit for 20 mins or so. Used the new ball valve and transfered it to a 25L Cube for the night.
Monday night transferred into fermenter and pitched at 23degrees. Under the house stays a fairly constant temp of 18 in the day and drops to about 16 at night. Dry hop in couple of days and then wait it out.
Hit OG of 1060 in the fermenter for just under 23L, so very happy. The whole thing was so simple and rewarding. For the first batch I think it went quite well.
Next time i'll get the bag made up and maybe investigate getting a better stand for the keggle and burner, Not sure how long those bricks are gonna hold out.
Will post more pics at dry hopping, bottling and tasting. Thanks to all the contributers to this thread. Gave me a good amount of confidence to jump in a give it a go.
Batch Size 23L
Mash at 66C for 60mins
Boil 60mins
3.75 kg Pale Malt
1.00 kg Munich I
0.35 kg Wheat Malt
0.35 kg Cara-Pils/Dextrine
40g Goldings, East Kent Pellets
5 g Chinook @ 60 min
30 g Cascade @ 20 min
30 g Cascade @ 10 min
10 g Chinook @ 5 min
50 g Chinook @ Flameout
25 g Chinook Dry Hop
US 05
The whole day went great, first time i've done a full volume and first time all grain. Also first time I gave the Keggle a run.
Bringing the water up to strike temp. Used the old stockpot to cover the cutout to keep the heat in.
Adding the grain
Mash Temp
Mashing away nicely. Note i didn't get the bag sewed up just got a couple of metres of swiss voile and layed it in the keggle. Cake rack in the bottom of course. Worked well enough. Next time i'll get it sewed up though, bit awkward holding the bag and giving the mash a bit of a stir.
Still mashing, gave the cars a wash while i waited, productive day really. dropped to 64 after about 40mins gave it a 10 min burst on the 3 ring to 68. Raised the temp to 72 for 10 mins after the 60 min mash. Extracted the grain into the stockpot. Added a couple of litres of boiled water from the kettle to sparge the grain, gave it a quick squeeze and added to the boil.
Suspended the hop sock from the Mash paddle. Got quite full, for the flameout addition I used a grain bag instead.
Didn't take any photos of the transfer, but after giving it a little manual whirlpool and letting it sit for 20 mins or so. Used the new ball valve and transfered it to a 25L Cube for the night.
Monday night transferred into fermenter and pitched at 23degrees. Under the house stays a fairly constant temp of 18 in the day and drops to about 16 at night. Dry hop in couple of days and then wait it out.
Hit OG of 1060 in the fermenter for just under 23L, so very happy. The whole thing was so simple and rewarding. For the first batch I think it went quite well.
Next time i'll get the bag made up and maybe investigate getting a better stand for the keggle and burner, Not sure how long those bricks are gonna hold out.
Will post more pics at dry hopping, bottling and tasting. Thanks to all the contributers to this thread. Gave me a good amount of confidence to jump in a give it a go.
argon
firmitas, utilitas, venustas
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Thanks... I think it went really well for a first time AG... a few tweaks over the next few brews and I think it'll be a doddle... love the simplicity of it all.
