A Great Place To Shove Your Temperature Probe

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browndog:

I'd try

- immersed in wort
- fermenter air/head space
- taped to side of fermenter
- immersed in water bottle beside fermenter
- hanging, loose in airspace of fridge

Would be interesting to see a graph of those temperatures over time, along with a log of when the compressor went on/off.
 
browndog:

I'd try

- immersed in wort
- fermenter air/head space
- taped to side of fermenter
- immersed in water bottle beside fermenter
- hanging, loose in airspace of fridge

Would be interesting to see a graph of those temperatures over time, along with a log of when the compressor went on/off.

Oh yes please :super: I have done all the above and know what works here.
Simple, or is it? <_<
 
Personally I tape my temperature sensor to the side of the fermentor and insulate it with some foam. My view is because the fermentation process is exothermic and the fermentation rate is not constant i.e starts slowly speeds up then tapers off, I believe controlling the fridge air temperature could give rise to tempetature fluctuations far greater than what could occur by sensing the wort or fermentor side wall temperatures.

But I agree with others that by doing this I will get temperature fluctuations of 2 or 3 degrees, but at least I know this is the extent of the fluctuations. By controlling the fridge air temperature you don't really know what temperature the wort may have reached unless you have monitored it.

This link provides some information on the subject of temperature control http://www.lemis.com/grog/Papers/freebeer/paper.pdf
 
ok, when i first set my controller / logger up i played around a little with the program (brewing a lager at 12degC saflager w34/70). i started off setting the temp according to the thermocouple taped to the side of the fermenter (red), then changed it to set the temp according to the fridge air temperature (purple) then changed it back as the fridge was cycling too much and i began to see the fermenter temperature rise. ambient is in blue (the sensor was on top of the fridge which is why it was kinda following the fridge cycle). each time you see the compressor cycle rate change, i made a change to the hysteresis points of the compressor. the fridge thermostat was completely bypassed and compressor is solely controlled by the logger / controller. it's rough as guts, but to do a proper analysis i'd need to put a thermocouple in the wort, but as stated in an earlier post that falls in the too hard basket and i'm happy with my thermocouple taped to the fermenter.
tempcontrol20070226.jpg

for those who care, each data-point was logged as an average of 600 1 second readings ie. 1 point every 10 minutes. data logger DT50
 
Browndog: Was just thinking that seeing you have so many thermocouples it would be very interesting to have any spares taped to the side of the fermenter at different heights. This should tell those who like to or are restricted to that method, the best height to put the probe at. Maybe same thing with the fridge temp probes.
 
There are a lot of good arguments floating around with this thread. As for the motivation behind my method described earlier, I find that it gives me a good compromise between the accuracy of imersing the probe in the wort (or insulating it to the side of the fermenter) and avoiding temp. swings in the wort by putting it in the fridge airspace and controlling that temperature.

It is simple, adds no extra sanitation concern, and compared to probes that I have placed on the side of the fermenter, completely insulated from the air, it provides an accurate wort temp reading, perhaps half a degree out. But, I'm willing to forgoe that level of accuracy for a greater level of control over temperature fluctuation, especially in lagers, where a few degrees of swing can produce unwanted esters or worse cause premature flocculation of the very tempremental yeast.

Cheers,

Mark
 
Browndog: Was just thinking that seeing you have so many thermocouples it would be very interesting to have any spares taped to the side of the fermenter at different heights. This should tell those who like to or are restricted to that method, the best height to put the probe at. Maybe same thing with the fridge temp probes.

To All,
No worries Guys, I have to organise the thermocouples and set this up, could take a couple of weeks, I'll keep everyone posted.

cheers

Browndog
 
Looking forward to it Browndog.

Also looks like Zizzle has done a bit in this area. Check out his Wiki article with graph called Temperature monitoring using a PC

I'm not too good on understanding these graphs (sorry Jupiter - haven't worked your one out as yet ;)) but it looks as though Zizzle is keeping his wort with half a degree and I know he uses Brissy's controllers.

I've also been posting here under the assumption that these controllers had a + or - 2 trigger (can't remember the correct word) whereas they are actually + or - 1 degree. Sorry about that.

Will PM Zizzle to see if he shed some light on where he shoves his probe ;)
 
To All,
No worries Guys, I have to organise the thermocouples and set this up, could take a couple of weeks, I'll keep everyone posted.

Browndog, PP etc. I know it's just a small point, but by thermocouple you really mean thermistors right?
 
Browndog, PP etc. I know it's just a small point, but by thermocouple you really mean thermistors right?
i'm using k-type thermocouples cause thats what i had handy. t-type would be preferable.
 
jup - yes, and no.

A thermocouple has a resolution of just over 0.04mV per degree C. If the analog input is designed to take a full scale TC input (around 60mV) then the ADC would have a resolution of about ~1.5 degrees for a 10bit ADC, ~0.4 degrees for a 12bit, ~0.1 for 14bit... 10bit chips are cheap, 12bit is a few dollars per chip in quantity and anything more than that becomes expensive - most applications opt for the cheapest they can get away with.

To 'find' extra resolution the system might then average successive readings within a threshold and look for step changes which will reset the averaging, hence the reason why you may see readings on a device which appear to have better resolution than they actually do. Systems with damping & step thresholds are also hard on feedback control loops and cause oscillations when the system isn't steady.

Bottom line: a feedback control system will never be able to control to better than +/- input resolution, and just looking at your graphs I reckon that might be +/-0.4 - so in reality it's doing pretty well.
 
jup - yes, and no.

A thermocouple has a resolution of just over 0.04mV per degree C. If the analog input is designed to take a full scale TC input (around 60mV) then the ADC would have a resolution of about ~1.5 degrees for a 10bit ADC, ~0.4 degrees for a 12bit, ~0.1 for 14bit... 10bit chips are cheap, 12bit is a few dollars per chip in quantity and anything more than that becomes expensive - most applications opt for the cheapest they can get away with.

To 'find' extra resolution the system might then average successive readings within a threshold and look for step changes which will reset the averaging, hence the reason why you may see readings on a device which appear to have better resolution than they actually do. Systems with damping & step thresholds are also hard on feedback control loops and cause oscillations when the system isn't steady.

ah, a digitally minded person.

but i have to argue yes and yes, k-type thermocouples are reasonably linear over about 1500degC range but are only accurate to about +-1.5degC at the temperatures we want to measure (which is FA in terms of their full scale which makes them good for that range). T-types, although have a much smaller linear range, are much more accurate across the range we want to measure here.

http://www.microlink.co.uk/tctable.html

alot of logging/measurement equipment allows adjustment of the analog gain (setting the range) to the input of the ADC to increase precision of low-scale measurements. also, alot of cheap ADCs are logarithmic, so precision is much higher at lower ranges. number of bits and resolution is not the underlying factor in thermocouple accuracy here.

wide temperature range measurements, k-types are more suitable, for room temperature measurements go t-types (or just go platinum RTD)

Bottom line: a feedback control system will never be able to control to better than +/- input resolution, and just looking at your graphs I reckon that might be +/-0.4 - so in reality it's doing pretty well.
the switching on of the compressor was set at 12.5DegC, the 0.4 deg above the 12degC point had little to do the digital resolution of the loggers DAC but the actual set point i had programmed to switch the compressor on.

i been seaching around the house for the manual for the logger to look up the specs but can't find it. if anyone cares, it's a www.datalogger.com DT50. i can almost be sure that 1) the precision/resolution of the logger using a K-type thermocouple is a shit load better than +/-0.4DegC 2) the accuracy of the logger using a k-type thermocouple is crap (about +-3DegC).

edit: found the manual. the DT50 quotes a resolution of 0.01% over a temperature range of -250 to 1800DegC. it uses a programmable gain stage into a voltage-to-frequency converter feeding a 'Programmable time-base and frequency counter' to interface with the CPU for its ADC routine. all data is stored as 24bit (16 bit mantissa) floating point values.
 
Slightly OT but Jupiter do you know of any cheap WA sources for T Type Thermocouples ? I have a dual channel medical thermometer that uses T Type probes.
Cheers
Doug
 
Looking at the programmable gains - 2uV resolution makes it a pretty capable data logger.

Hadn't even considered the inaccuracy of TCs, it's been a while since i've really thought about that. Most systems would have a manual correction factor but few people bother profiling TCs, and even if they did they would find they deteriorate with use. So long as it's repeatable you can tweak the process input and off you go.


Now - how to control your output to the compressor to improve the cooling control. What would it take to add variable compressor control to a fridge that was never designed to work that way?!
 
Now - how to control your output to the compressor to improve the cooling control. What would it take to add variable compressor control to a fridge that was never designed to work that way?!

You can't. The closest you could get would be to make your own glycol jacket system. The fridge/freezer would be set to a temperature below the target temperature of the beer, and a custom controller would vary the system's pump which circulates the glycol. Refrigeration compressors don't take kindly to being rapidly cycled.
 
It's probably not feasible for cost reasons I agree - but the concept is already a reality.

Commercial refrigeration has been doing it for years and domestic air conditioners are catching on with their inverter technology. Appliance manufacturers have already said that variable speed compressors will be the way of the future, which is sad considering I bought a new fridge last year!
 
Commercial refrigeration has been doing it for years and domestic air conditioners are catching on with their inverter technology. Appliance manufacturers have already said that variable speed compressors will be the way of the future, which is sad considering I bought a new fridge last year!

Neat! Any idea how rapidly they're 'pulsed'? My only reservation concerns the switching transients that this new compressor design will kick back onto the mains.

Don't feel too bad about not jumping on the new technology bandwagon - the first generation of any new technology is always riddled with bugs. Besides, prices invariably fall over time as well.
 
It's not pulsing, its changing the speed of the compressor which reduces the temperature drop through the refrigeration cycle.

If a compressor is a motor driven pump, the speed of an AC motor is a function of AC frequency. The 'inverter' in an air conditioner converts the AC power to DC, then either uses a DC driven compressor or converts back to AC again through a circuit where they can adjust the period of the cycle (depending on which patents the manufacturer holds)
 
hey fellas, shouldn't this be on a seperate thread, this has nothing to do with PP's original post

rook
 
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