3v from biab questions

[mrsupraboy]

Hey guys, im ready for an upgrade of my system. I currently have a herms biab type system.

I thinking of going a 3v system 100l pots


Im gonna do the build myself. I have a rough i ldea of how its different but at the same time very fresh to the idea of how it works. Can someone point me to the best guide on how its gonna be different.

Also were is the best place to buy the pots. Im on nsw

 

[Adr_0]

can't really help with sourcing pots but there should be some going around.

HERMS has always puzzled me as it's complicated and has horrible response. RIMS is vastly better because it is simpler and you get far better setpoint change response and holding setpoints.

Have you considered staying 1V or going 2V RIMS? Having done 3V a couple of times (different rigs) I'm very happy with the ease of use of my 2V setup and will probably put an element on it sometime this year.

 

[TheWiggman]

Haha Adr_0, I'd swear you were in the business of selling [Ad]RIMS setups! supraboy never mentioned HERMS

I can't think of a good guide. Plenty of discussion on this here forum on the ups and downs. Maybe troll through the dedicated BIAB and 3V threads because pros and cons are invariably mentioned.

I personally did 2V and made the switch to 3V, have my own reasons but by all means consider 2V as suggested. At the end of the day it's all about how you manage and understand your own system. Don't expect better beer out of 3V if you've mastered BIAB.

 

[schtev]

Don't expect better beer out of 3V if you've mastered BIAB.

I'm curious then, what advantages are there to a 3V system? The only one I know of is you can get higher efficiency when brewing very high OG beers.

 

[seamad]

I have a double batch 3V RIMS setup and still occasionally do a single/double batch biab in the kettle. The 3V is easier ( for me) to do multi temp mashes, once I get good grain bed setup and pump going the PID does it all, alarms go off if something goes amiss and I'll check it out. I also tend to make the most use out of a brewday and do 2 double batches, first brew into kettle and start the next mash straight away, saves a bit of time.

 

[MastersBrewery]

I think the biggest advantage of 3v is the ability to be mashing a second brew, while the first brew is on the boil

 

[stux]

Another advantage over big BIAB, is it gets very difficult to be pulling 15KG grain bills up in the air. Add a dunk sparge... and you begin to run into the limits of BIAB quite quickly

 

[Adr_0]

Hey guys, im ready for an upgrade of my system. I currently have a herms biab type system.

Haha Adr_0, I'd swear you were in the business of selling [Ad]RIMS setups! supraboy never mentioned HERMS

I can't think of a good guide. Plenty of discussion on this here forum on the ups and downs. Maybe troll through the dedicated BIAB and 3V threads because pros and cons are invariably mentioned.

I personally did 2V and made the switch to 3V, have my own reasons but by all means consider 2V as suggested. At the end of the day it's all about how you manage and understand your own system. Don't expect better beer out of 3V if you've mastered BIAB.

My AdRIMS (basically recirculation mash without the element) has some strengths on a small scale but also has limitations. A heating element in there is loads better; and AdRIMS is just not feasible on a 100L scale as the bucket becomes 50+L and might as well be your 3rd V.

I'm curious then, what advantages are there to a 3V system? The only one I know of is you can get higher efficiency when brewing very high OG beers.

You can probably control fermentability a little better as you have full(ish) control over mash:water ratio and you may get some advantage of wort clarity. Recirculating (e.g. RIMS) with BIAB would give you this though and allow you to step without too many dramas. There is maybe less manual handling on a large scale (don't have to grab a hot, 30+kg bag of wet grain) but 100L pots are still heavy and need to be lugged around for cleaning/storage.

3V you at least have somewhere separate to put as much grain as you can fit and totally control the sparge, i.e. batch or fly and water:grain ratio control. I would recommend still having a grain bag (or two) as it makes it super easy to pull the grain out and do a clean-in-place for your mash tun. You can still use a manifold/false bottom but the bag is a good backup and allows you to pull it out without too much drama.

RIMS works well with 3V as you keep the mash tun and kettle on the same level, i.e. pump around the mash tun then pump across.

Maybe use your HERMS coil for pre-chilling your cooling water? That would be a great use for a HERMS coil (or a doorstop).

 

[TheWiggman]

Main advantage is the ability to do infusing mashing, high temp sparging... pretty much it. Good for customising some styles but I think it's bleeding edge and not something most home brewers would ever really need.
Step mashing can easily be accomplished on a BIAB rig by adding a HERMS or simply recirculating with a low density element. Step mashing and temp control isn't limited to 2 and 3V. There are plenty of 3V systems out there without temp control.
Oh, you can get a lot more stainless in your brewery with a 3V, of utmost importance once the true value of one's brewery is realised.

(ED: shouldn't leave half-written responses on the iPad for over an hour)

 

[mrsupraboy]

Do people prefer gas or electric. I was considering a mix between both. I was gonna do gas for the boiling pot and elements for the heating lot

 

[mrsupraboy]

Also so you have 3 vessels. You have a boiler, you have a mash tun(which is for your grain) and you have a heating pot to heat the water up.

Do people keep recirculating between the heating pot and the mash tun. Also does the recirculation really do much with them small pumps.

 

[Goose]

Do people prefer gas or electric. I was considering a mix between both. I was gonna do gas for the boiling pot and elements for the heating lot

I personally hate immersion elements because if you inadvertently drop the liquid level below the element it is cactus...

However elec works fine if you want automatic control of the mash temp in a RIMS system via a heat exchanger....so yes a combination can work fine....

 

[Moad]

Bigger volume on 3v, unless you have a crane handy

 

[mrsupraboy]

What's the best way to regulate temp with gas

 

[MastersBrewery]

This thread may help

 

[TheWiggman]

Also so you have 3 vessels. You have a boiler, you have a mash tun(which is for your grain) and you have a heating pot to heat the water up.

Do people keep recirculating between the heating pot and the mash tun. Also does the recirculation really do much with them small pumps.

Mash tun is for grains, 'heating pot' (hot liquor tun) is for water. If you want to regulate the temperature of the mash tun - which is not necessary - then a seperate system like RIMS or HERMS is required, or a seperate heater for the MT (immersed element or gas), which is uncommon. This is why the MTs are typically insulated, so that the temp changes little during rests and in the days before recirc the temps could be much better maintained.
As for electric or gas, choose your own adventure. Some do one, some do others, some do both. Gas is easy and will heat anything, but can run out. Flames need to be managed. Electricity won't run out (save for blackouts) but requires some thought put into power requirements and some modifications to pots. Also requires some electrical knowledge.

 

[Moad]

Mash tun is for grains, 'heating pot' (hot liquor tun) is for water. If you want to regulate the temperature of the mash tun - which is not necessary

How do you maintain mash temp without a HLT or some kind of recirc? Heating in the MT itself?

If I was building from scratch I'd go electric, if you go gas then try and get some NG plumbed in to the brewery. Filling bottles is a PITA

 

[Adr_0]

Electric is nice for control and has cheaper running cost but a failure means you are screwed vs ducking to the local servo for another gas bottle... Or keeping a full spare.

For 100L, just to achieve boiloff you would need 115kg (preboil volume) x 2257kJ/kg (heat of vaporisation) x 10%/hr / 3600 = 7-8kW element which is probably pushing 30-40A on your power circuits.

That would also take 40-45min to come to the boil after tthe mash.

With big batches you needa bbucket load of power. Insulation can help this a bit and is worth doing but it is unlikely to save you if you don't have the power.

To control temp with a Burner you really just need to turn it down a bit. Knock off a ring or if you can get a regulator that allows flow adjustment then this will work.

 

[Yob]

I keep 3 x 9 kg bottles, when 2 are empty, a run to supagas... That's like once a year.. Maybe... not too hard to ensure you don't run out (spare BBQ gas bottle if I did)

Cocko recently changed from rims to herms, must be something in it

 

[TheWiggman]

How do you maintain mash temp without a HLT or some kind of recirc? Heating in the MT itself?

If I was building from scratch I'd go electric, if you go gas then try and get some NG plumbed in to the brewery. Filling bottles is a PITA

That's a minor setback from not having temp control, the temp cannot be maintained. with the typical esky setup it'll drop a degree or 3 over the hour.
With 2V/3V, the HLT (or HLT/boiler for 2V) is required. You will always have a pot that can heat water.