2 Tier Brew Setup

[Wolfy]

...in metric that works out to be about 3.1L/kg, 2.6L/kg and 4.1L/kg.

... which is what I said in the post above.

Fill MLT with water 52L
...
Add Grain

Recirculate at 67.8C for 30 min

What do you mean here?
You seem to be suggesting that the water in the MT is pumped directly into the HLT where it is heated and then circulated back to the MT (no heat exchange pipes inside the HLT, simply pump from 1 vessel to the other)?
If that is true, the water/grain ratio inside the MT will be much lower than the 3.5L/kg and it might not be enough to cover the grain bed (depends on geometry etc), somewhere in the order of 15L in the mash and 15L in the HLT which is not going to work well.
Another concern could be localized heating of the wort around the element (especially since you are not using a PID, so the element is either 'on' (full power) or 'off') which means you could caramelize the wort and/or denature the enzymes because the temp around the element will be higher than the mash temp.

add/fill HLT with sparg water 30l(tap water).

Heat sparg water to temp 75C

... which will take about an hour if you only have 1x 2200W element, during which time your grain bed will be dry and the wort in the kettle likely boiling for 1/2 hour.

then pump sparg water to kettle

kettle should be about 66lt, heat and boil.

No, because about 24L of water will be retained in the spent grain, you'll need to sparge again (for a total of about 40L).
So you're going to be waiting for 40mins each time you want to boil up 20L of water (with only 1 2200W element).

As I said above, insulate the MT well, and forget the mash recirculation stuff (at least for now) - you are making things much more complex than they need to be.
Try the system and if you 'only' have a 1-2deg temp drop over the 1 hour mash, its all fine (and works for many many brewers here on the forums) and much much easier than what you seem to be proposing.
That way you can heat the water for your first sparge while mashing, and the second sparge while the first batch sparge is happening (which means a bit of a delay but not too much), however having a HLT that is at least 50L would make your life much easier.

 

[bignath]

Without wanting to sound like a smartarse, here's a VERY simplistic outline of 3V brewing. Your process seems to be way more complicated than it needs to be, and sometimes sounds like some procedures are being confused or left out.

1. Heat required water volume for your mash, in your HLT to strike temp (the temp your water will be at when you add grain, considering you will lose temp once the grain mixes with the water.)
Stir briefly, break up any doughballs, lid on your mash tun. Check temp after 5mins, if all is where you wanted it, start timing your mash.

2. While mash is in progress, heat sparge water.

3. At end of mash, recirculate a couple of litres (i use an old beer stein), drain mash tun (first runnings).

4. Transfer heated sparge water to mash tun and stir grain bed briefly. Let sit for 10mins. This is for batch sparge. Fly sparging is continuously draining first runnings, whilst slowly adding sparge water so it all flows out in one process. Recirculate a few litres again and drain into kettle ontop of the first runnings that will already be in there.

5. Once volume is collected in kettle, or if your confident that your sparge won't get stuck (i've been the master at achieving this lately), turn your heat on earlier to reduce brew day length.

6. Boil, add hops, cool, pitch yeast.

As i said, this is VERY simplistic and doesn't take into account any other mash method besides a simple infusion type without recirculating, or decocting etc.
Also as i said, not trying to dumb this down, but brewing beer doesn't need to be all that hard.

I use 3lt per kg, and this process described above is EXACTLY how i make beer. And good beer at that....

 

[technoicon]

What do you mean here?
You seem to be suggesting that the water in the MT is pumped directly into the HLT where it is heated and then circulated back to the MT (no heat exchange pipes inside the HLT, simply pump from 1 vessel to the other)?

yes this is exactly what I was thinking.

If that is true, the water/grain ratio inside the MT will be much lower than the 3.5L/kg and it might not be enough to cover the grain bed (depends on geometry etc), somewhere in the order of 15L in the mash and 15L in the HLT which is not going to work well.

probably be more like 20l 10l. I was origanlly thinking full mash in tun, like you would biab, recirculate during mash, so it would be 70l and 15 in hlt. (roughly)
I see your point here though.

Another concern could be localized heating of the wort around the element (especially since you are not using a PID, so the element is either 'on' (full power) or 'off') which means you could caramelize the wort and/or denature the enzymes because the temp around the element will be higher than the mash temp.
... which will take about an hour if you only have 1x 2200W element, during which time your grain bed will be dry and the wort in the kettle likely boiling for 1/2 hour.

I do this at the moment with BIAB, and never had any problems (that i noticed)

No, because about 24L of water will be retained in the spent grain, you'll need to sparge again (for a total of about 40L).
So you're going to be waiting for 40mins each time you want to boil up 20L of water (with only 1 2200W element).

i calculated with beersmith, 52+30 is 82l minus 22l loss to grain is just under my target 66l. close enough.

As I said above, insulate the MT well, and forget the mash recirculation stuff (at least for now) - you are making things much more complex than they need to be.
Try the system and if you 'only' have a 1-2deg temp drop over the 1 hour mash, its all fine (and works for many many brewers here on the forums) and much much easier than what you seem to be proposing.
That way you can heat the water for your first sparge while mashing, and the second sparge while the first batch sparge is happening (which means a bit of a delay but not too much), however having a HLT that is at least 50L would make your life much easier.

The main reason for recirculating is to remove the need to sparg, like the single vessels do. at the moment i get about 80% from just pulling the bag out, with recirculating I thought I should be able to get the same if not better?

Been trying to use the princaples of single vessel and apply them to a 3 vessels and maybe totaly missing the point! Thanks for your help

 

[technoicon]

Just added a simple bit but probably made this heaps better!!

this way i could still recirculate just not through the HLT if i wanted to, also could put a RIMS or HLT in later.

Would this be better?

 

[bignath]

At risk of making my self look like an idiot, i'm not seeing what's different.

Having said that, beer oclock was a few hours ago, and i'm five stubbies into a 6.5% pils....

 

[technoicon]

Look at the simple picture might be easier, just added a t piece so i can mash and sparg.

in this design, I would heat mash in either kettle or HLT then add to MLT. say 45l

mash with out recirculating.

heat sparg in HLT while mashing

Pump to kettle

Sparg

pump to kettle

boil.

 

[Wolfy]

The main reason for recirculating is to remove the need to sparg, like the single vessels do. at the moment i get about 80% from just pulling the bag out, with recirculating I thought I should be able to get the same if not better?

Been trying to use the princaples of single vessel and apply them to a 3 vessels and maybe totaly missing the point! Thanks for your help

From an efficiency point-of-view (as I understand it) with BIAB you are using the bag to filter the grain (so it can be crushed fine) with a 3V system a false bottom/manifold allows the actual grain-bed to do the filtering (crush too fine you'll get stuck sparges). The fine crush BIAB allows increases efficiency, the lack of sparge decreases it, with 3V the sparge increases efficiency but you need to use a coarser mash so you lose some there ... in the end it works out to about the same number.

If efficiency is the critical factor, and you did change to 3V, then you should be looking to fly-sparge, which again means that your HLT needs to be bigger (but around 8-850% is not an unexpected target efficiency then).

On the other hand if you could use your bag to filter the grain, recirculate the wort via the HLT, but somehow ensure there is no channeling and the circulation is even through the gran bed, (isn't that how the Brewmiester works with the removable grain-pipe thing?) I assume you'd get higher efficiency, but the volume of water required might mean there is no ability to sparge, or that the sparge volume is so small as not to be beneficial (leaving you back where you are now, you just moved the heating element to a different place).

 

[kymba]

there are no threads on the ports of that pump - they are 1/2" barbs

 

[technoicon]

there are no threads on the ports of that pump - they are 1/2" barbs

cool, i will have to fix that up.. i wasnt sure as it wasnt documented, will fix my diagram later.

 

[Wolfy]

Look at the simple picture might be easier, just added a t piece so i can mash and sparg.

That process is simple and easy (and heating your initial strike water in the kettle is a good option).
45L for 15kg grain is a good start, however you still need another 45L which your HLT cannot provide either in a single batch sparge or to fly sparge (which should give you good efficiency but it means you have to heat the entire sparge volume).

 

[technoicon]

wolfy that makes more sense, didnt realise that the finer grain made higher efficiency.

i have a 30l and a 80l atm, so i will try batch sparging and if i dont get required efficiency i'll buy a bigger 3rd pot.

I think that latest design would at least work for single batches, maybe even double (40L). but i might not get my 60l with out getting a bigger HLT?

 

[technoicon]

I was thinking of doing a larger water/grain ratio and smaller sparg. would this be a lot less efficient?

 

[Mayor of Mildura]

... In a few weeks time in Mildura

 

[technoicon]

sounds right in my head. lol

 

[Wolfy]

I was thinking of doing a larger water/grain ratio and smaller sparg. would this be a lot less efficient?

Have a read of each of the pages under the 'Wort Production' heading, lots of useful info:
http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php/Brauk...Wort_Production

Also another interesting thing to do would be to add up the cost of all the new gear and then check how long it will take to recoup the expense - assuming you get a 5% (or even 10%) increase in efficiency.