2 Tier Brew Setup

[technoicon]

just thought i would throw this out there. can any one see a problem with this setup?

Photo

It will be two vessel's on the top, mash and kettle for easy access to both, then a HLT for circulating the wort like a heat exchange vessel.

any feed back is welcome.

 

[raven19]

Are you introducing a recirculating mash system? (RIMS or HERMS?)

 

[razz]

Depending on batch size you will need a bigger capacity HLT.

 

[Wolfy]

any feed back is welcome.

Camlocks or another sort of quick-disconnect would make attaching/removing/changing your hoses much easier than the hose-barbs in the picture.

 

[technoicon]

Raven, yes it will be a herms type setup, i've update the picture to show how it will flow.

wolfy, i really dont want to have to move any hoses, just be able to use ball valves ect. although cleaning would probably be easier?

razz, I was hoping that I wouldn't need a bigger one, this is the part i'm not sure about, how big does it have to be, I would like to do 60l batches, but when recirculating does it empty the mlt or only partially. i cant explain what i mean properly.

 

[technoicon]

so basically the HLT is just a pass through heater, so will it matter how big the batch size is? (i'm happy to heat up water 2 times) so fill 30l pump into MLT and then heat another 30L then pump that into MLT?

 

[razz]

You need to use something like Beersmith to calculate how much water you will need for a 60lt batch, at a guess about 80-90 lts from start to finish. I'm doing a 40lt brew length and use 63 lts. I use a 40lt HLT and refill once. You need to clarify how the heat will exchange between the HLT and the MLT. I'm guessing you will have a coil in the HLT?

 

[Cortez The Killer]

Camlocks as above

Replace the hose on the MT return with silicon - that Helical PVC is nasty at high temps

Bigger HLT - possibly a hang over the side element to supplement single 2200W when in a hurry

Pickup tubes for kettle / HLT

Have a look at this for some inspiration if going all stainless http://www.theelectricbrewery.com/

You should be able to make you own weldless fittings with hex nipples or these http://www.homebrewstuff.com/brewing-hardw...less-steel.html

Cheers

 

[technoicon]

didnt write it but it will be all sillicon hose.

 

[technoicon]

Also because i'm recirculating I dont think I will sparg. so is a bigger HLT required?

 

[technoicon]

You need to use something like Beersmith to calculate how much water you will need for a 60lt batch, at a guess about 80-90 lts from start to finish. I'm doing a 40lt brew length and use 63 lts. I use a 40lt HLT and refill once. You need to clarify how the heat will exchange between the HLT and the MLT. I'm guessing you will have a coil in the HLT?

Was just going to turn the element on while circulating, and temp control it from the MLT. at the moment I only get about a 3 degree drop doing BIAB so should be fine just circulating.

I had thought about a coil, then i might be able to use it to cool as well. but not 100% sure yet.

 

[raven19]

Also because i'm recirculating I dont think I will sparg. so is a bigger HLT required?

I think you will want to sparge mate, you are moving from BIAB (whole preboil volume in urn) to a multi-vessel system - this means (normally) lower water to mash ratio in the MT. Then sparge (batch/fly) once first runnings have been drained from the mash.

 

[technoicon]

I think you will want to sparge mate, you are moving from BIAB (whole preboil volume in urn) to a multi-vessel system - this means (normally) lower water to mash ratio in the MT. Then sparge (batch/fly) once first runnings have been drained from the mash.

ok i should be able to pump into kettle then sparg through?

then pump sparg through to kettle and start boil.

My main question is with the HLT size, why does this need to be bigger, i can sparg with less than 30lt, have 52lt in mash tun recirculating and increase temp through recirculating like i do with biab (I heat and stir). if it's slower out of the MLT and quicker to pump out of HLT it should never have more than 10L in the HLT??? or am i completely off track.

 

[technoicon]

after looking into this further i'm worried about water/grain ratio, i cant figure out what a higher water/grain ratio will do the best i could find is it will ferment quicker and take longer to convert?

if this is the case that's fine. i'm happy with a 90 minute ferment.

 

[Wolfy]

ok i should be able to pump into kettle then sparg through?

then pump sparg through to kettle and start boil.

My main question is with the HLT size, why does this need to be bigger, i can sparg with less than 30lt, have 52lt in mash tun recirculating and increase temp through recirculating like i do with biab (I heat and stir). if it's slower out of the MLT and quicker to pump out of HLT it should never have more than 10L in the HLT??? or am i completely off track.

If I'm understanding what you propose, you're going to have a problem when it comes time to mash-out and sparging because your HLT is also the HX.
During the mash you'll need the entire volume of the HTL at mash temps (say 65C, because the mash is circulated through it), but for mash-out (or the batch sparge volume) you want to lift the temp of the grain bed (to say 75C) which means that the sparge water in your HLT needs to be closer to 80 or 90C.

So how will you heat it during the mash while you are recirculating the mash through it? You're going to be heating entire volume (full HLT plus mash) to mash-out temps via the element in the HLT, which - I think - would be rather slow. Which is why that most people who have a HX in their system use a smaller dedicated vessel for that purpose - there is a very detailed thread about all that somewhere here.

Easy solution is to insulate the MT well and hope that the temp does not drop much, or if that does not work, setup a dedicated HeatExchanger.

 

[Wolfy]

after looking into this further i'm worried about water/grain ratio, i cant figure out what a higher water/grain ratio will do the best i could find is it will ferment quicker and take longer to convert?

if this is the case that's fine. i'm happy with a 90 minute ferment.

Fermenting is what the yeast does to turn your wort into beer, you're thinking of the time it takes the enzymes in the mash to convert the starches to sugars.

For a single batch (5kg grain, 30L pre-boil volume) somewhere about 3.25L/kg = 16L is a fair estimate for your mash, which means you'll need to sparge with about 22L of water - double those numbers if you want to do double batches (which I expect you do with an 80L kettle/MT, but this is when your HLT will be too small, you can't heat even the 32L initial mash volume or the 44L of sparge water).

 

[technoicon]

Both R. Mosher and J. Palmer recommend 1.5 Q/lb as the 'ideal' water/grain ratio, with 1.25 Q/lb suggested for a stiff mash (less fermentable but quicker conversion) and 2Q/lb for a thin mash (more fermentable but longer mash), in metric that works out to be about 3.1L/kg, 2.6L/kg and 4.1L/kg.

What is he talking about here?

 

[raven19]

3L per 1kg of grain give or take will be fine mate. This is your mash in water:grist ratio.

You lose roughly 1L per 1kg of grain to absorption during the mash, remove first runnings (remaining 2L per kg) after the mash is complete. Then sparge with 78 degree water either fly sparging or batch sparging to get up to your required volume into the kettle.

 

[technoicon]

i'll put my steps down so you can see what i'm doing wrong.

first I think a water/grain ratio of 3.5, so 15kg of grain would be 52.5 lt, this is my mash.

Fill MLT with water 52L

Recirculate to temp 67.8C

Add Grain

Recirculate at 67.8C for 30 min

time taken to temp rise approx 30min?? would this be ok? would it matter if it's slow? what's the pluses minus's?

Recirculate to 75C hold for 15 mins

Pump all wort to Kettle, start heating up for boil

add/fill HLT with sparg water 30l(tap water).

Heat sparg water to temp 75C

not sure if you would recirculate this or just run through once? but do either one of these

then pump sparg water to kettle

kettle should be about 66lt, heat and boil.


Just like to say i've only done BIAB so forgive me negligence

 

[raven19]

If you are recirculating through a coil in the HLT, then the HLT will need to be filled again and heated up to high 60's so you can use it to maintain your wort/mash temp desired.

Problem is you have just emptied it all into your Mash Tun.

Maybe a 4th smaller vessel (a HERMS pot with the coil inside) or a bigger HLT (80L -> 50L mash + 30L for HERMS recirc & sparging) is required.