Yeast Suggestions Please.....

[opposition]

Hi all,

Recently brewed this... Tasted it tonight as double batched and half had been eaten by a cultured coopers yeast.



Recipe: Beast Sparkling Ale
Brewer: Dean McCarthy
Asst Brewer: Will Bradley
Style: Australian Sparkling Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 40.00 L
Boil Size: 48.17 L
Estimated OG: 1.056 SG
Estimated Color: 8.3 EBC
Estimated IBU: 39.6 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
9.20 kg Pilsner (2 Row) Ger (3.9 EBC) Grain 96.34 %
0.35 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (19.7 EBC) Grain 3.66 %
75.00 gm Pride of Ringwood [8.30 %] (90 min) Hops 39.6 IBU
1 Pkgs Cooper Ale (Coopers #-) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 9.55 kg
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Full Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
90 min Mash In Add 24.93 L of water at 71.2 C 65.0 C

HOWEVER... It had a banana ester/aroma and i wanted a yeast that would give this a drier finish. Dont get me wrong, the beer was splendid, but experiments are great in this hobby.

Can anyone point me in the right direction for another yeast to use to achieve this. Or any feedback would be great.

Cheers,

Dean.

 

[brendo]

Recultured coopers yeast is the business - this style is very much yeast driven.

If you have temp control and can keep it at 17-18 you will limit the banana and get more pear esters.

Cheers

brendo

 

[opposition]

Yeah, this one stayed at around 18 most of the time....

Would there be a yeast to maybe provide a less fruity character, and give a little drier finish?

Dean.

 

[haysie]

1272 is a very good yeast, in the Coopers style ? I think its better.
If you have ever made a good beer with us05, 1272 will make an awesome beer.

 

[opposition]

Would 1272 or US-05 get down to around 1.005 FG???

 

[buttersd70]

from 1056 to 1005, you'd be looking at needing 91% apparant attenuation....that's a pretty tall order.

edit: fermentis don't list attenuation of us05, other than saying 'high'....but I would think it would be very similar to WY1056, which wyeast say averages 73-77%. 1272 is listed as 72-76%. Of course, grainbill, mash temp, yeast health, pitching rates, nutrition, etc etc all effect this. for a 1056 OG, you could probably push it to into the low 80's, finishing about 1010-10-12....

 

[haysie]

Would 1272 or US-05 get down to around 1.005 FG???

How long is a piece of string?

 

[Bribie G]

As it happens I'm currently quaffing my Sparkling made on recultured Coopers, fermented at around 18 as well and not a trace of banana, but heaps of pear. After pitching did it start off a bit hot for a few houres before you brought the temp down maybe?

 

[drtomc]

from 1056 to 1005, you'd be looking at needing 91% apparant attenuation....that's a pretty tall order.

The only yeast I've used which is in that league is the Wyeast Saison, which gave me 1.050 - 1.005. After several weeks of warm (24C) fermentation.

T.

 

[Swinging Beef]

Maybe it's not the yeast's fault.
Coopers use sugar in their beers.
That'll help get them drier.
Treat Australian Sparkling Ale as the dirty Belgian bitch that it is.

 

[bconnery]

Actually there is evidence that Coopers don't use sugar in some of their beers.
Their malt helps them achieve lower finishes as well I believe.

You could drop the mash temp a few degrees to dry that out further. I know 65 is fairly low but you could go to 63 to help really dry it out...
Look around for AndrewQld, I think, Sparkling Ale clone recipe and discussions. I believe he gets about 1006 in it, generally using recultured coopers yeast...

 

[DJR]

There is plenty of clean attenuative ale yeasts out there - for example WLP029 Kolsch, WLP001/WY1056/US05 American Ale, WY1272 Am Ale II, WY1007 German Ale, WY2565 Kolsch, WY1010 American Wheat (actually another Kolsch yeast). The German/Kolsch ones will throw a bit of sulfur in their profile though so you may not want that as it's not to style.

You need to get a bit of esters, i'd be going for the WY1272 or 001/1056/US05.

You'll need to add some sugar and mash low (63-65C) to get near 91% attenuation with pretty much any yeast.

 

[DJR]

I thought recently the Pale went all malt but the Sparkling still uses some sugar (5%?), have to search around for some more info or ask the source.

The other thing i should ask is: How did you reculture? Was it a decent amount of yeast? Excessive esters can also be formed by excessive yeast growth in the wort, ie. by not pitching enough yeast.

 

[Bribie G]

That's what slightly ruffles me about all those guides "how to reculture a Coopers Bottle". I used the sediment from two tallies and cultivated it in a 1L Schott bottle for 3 days and even so I reckon it was underpitched and it took 15 days to ferment in primary. Turned out fine in the end but I was careful to keep it on 18 degrees so no banana.

If I was writing a guide on Coopers yeasties I'd recommend three, yup three tallies worth if you want to pitch within 3 days. They are on special at Liquorland for $15 at the moment so you get the yeast and get to drink the beer for around the price of a smack pack.

 

[Online Brewing Supplies]

Recultured coopers yeast is the business - this style is very much yeast driven.

If you have temp control and can keep it at 17-18 you will limit the banana and get more pear esters.

Cheers

brendo

I would go with that recomendation , remember that the esters are formed from higher temps, high gravity, higher pitch rates, wort composition and yeast choice.Warm conditioning may have cleaned up the esters.
GB

 

[rich_lamb]

Would 1272 or US-05 get down to around 1.005 FG???

What is your priority? I thought you wanted a cleaner character...
Couple of options:

1) Use one of the "cleaner" yeasts, and tweak your recipe for less attenuation, or add maybe 5% sugar to get more attenuation if you want a really dry finish.

2) Use the coopers yeast which will do that sort of attenuation by itself (provided you mash right), and look after it to get rid of the esters. I can't actually tell you what looking after a coopers yeast means, since I've heard stories about getting banana in all sorts of different conditions - particularly temperature - but you can try the old faithfuls like good aeration, higher pitching rates, etc.

just my 2c

 

[Fourstar]

1272 is a very good yeast, in the Coopers style ? I think its better.
If you have ever made a good beer with us05, 1272 will make an awesome beer.

Yep, awesome yeast, slightly nutty profile when fermented low and slightly fruity in the upper range. Balances well if you want a clean beer and something different than bog stock 1056.

That's what slightly ruffles me about all those guides "how to reculture a Coopers Bottle". I used the sediment from two tallies and cultivated it in a 1L Schott bottle for 3 days and even so I reckon it was underpitched and it took 15 days to ferment in primary. Turned out fine in the end but I was careful to keep it on 18 degrees so no banana.
If I was writing a guide on Coopers yeasties I'd recommend three, yup three tallies worth if you want to pitch within 3 days. They are on special at Liquorland for $15 at the moment so you get the yeast and get to drink the beer for around the price of a smack pack.

I had the same issue Bribie, I believe this example is also wrong (pitch wise) and may have jaded me with using galaxy hops as it threw the flavour profile way out of whack. I made an aussie pale with a sierra nevada clone grist using nothing but galaxy to 35IBU. The yeast profile was very NQR. I'd say the best option for coopers yeats would be 1 tallie, stirplate with 200ml if wort for 16-24 hrs, add antoher 500ml 16-24 hours then another 500ml 16-24 hours. If no stirplate, start with 2 tallies and intermittant shaking.

Visually, the yeast from 1 tallie as a starting point is around the same amount i get from a slant after adding 40ml to vial, left to ferment out then add to an erlenmeyer with 100ml of wort and stirred for 24 hours~. Wispy clouds of yeast so to speak.

 

[rich_lamb]

Hmmm, maybe the problem you guys are having with cultured yeast is not so much where you are starting from but where you are finishing.
I would have thought only a 1L starter into a 20L batch of Aussie Pale ate maybe 1.056 would be underpitching... I'm sure somebody will dredge out a calculator like Mr. Malty to prove the correctness or falsehood in my lazy assertion

Either way, if I was concerned about esters I would be doubling the size of that starter...

 

[brendo]

For the recent Aust Pale Ale that I did I stepped up my started along the lines of what Fourstar is suggesting.

I started with two stubbies worth of slurry and stepped them up gradually on a stir plate.

My final starter was about 1.5l and I had plenty of yeast for pitching, which resulted in a good strong ferment that was pretty much done in 2.5-3 days.

Cheers,

Brendo

edit - more info

 

[Fourstar]

Hmmm, maybe the problem you guys are having with cultured yeast is not so much where you are starting from but where you are finishing.
Either way, if I was concerned about esters I would be doubling the size of that starter...

Im not concerned about under pitching to have some esters, more so about SEVERELY underpitching which i believe i may have done. Since that batch, everything i have brewed has been calculated via Mr. Malty calc and i'd have to say, my beers are better for it. What the OP is upset about appears the be the inherent profile of the coopers yeast, something he cannot really remove all components completly (banana, fruitiness) without chancing his choice of yeast.

Besides, it doesnt hurt to slightly underpitch beers like bitters etc @ 700,000 cells * ml of wort * deg plato, even 650,000 cells might be an ok cell count to push fruity esters with a nice cold slow growth period. If i want a neutral profile (which is most of the time) i always stick with the 750k cells per ml per deg plato rule for ales, its just the way i roll.