wild yeast

[Toper]

clarification accepted

 

[manticle]

So brettanomyces doesn't exist and if and when it doesn't doesn't exist, it doesn't affect wine or beer?

I'm pretty sure the paper is not saying what you think it is saying but I'll need to read it before I can be sure of myself.

Have you got a direct link (rather than a google suggestion)?

From what you have said, the paper didn't suggest wild yeast is a myth at all - just that in cases where wild yeast was present and commercial yeast was deliberately added (presumably) the commercial yeast dominated. Did it say anything about the flavour contribution wild yeast made while it was active or just that cells became outnumbered in biological competition?

definitely interested in reading the paper - reckon your summary is way off.

 

[Greg.L]

I suppose I should have said "pure cultures". The principles of microbial fermentation were established by Pasteur in the 1860s, so pure cultures came after that. I think powdered yeasts were only available for homebrewers from the 1970s though I'm not sure of that, perhaps someone might know.
There is still a lot of wine and cider produced by wild fermentation, in France some winemakers won't allow cultured yeast into the winery because they consider the "terroir" of the indigenous yeast so important.

 

[Ironsides]

Commercial wine yeasts are very tolerant of alcohol. This means that a ferment may begin wild, and as alcohol levels rise they are killed off leaving the commercial strains to take over. Wort is (hopefully) sterile so you would need to introduce a source of wild yeast. I once attempted to cultivate some wild yeast from Chardonnay juice (which I allowed to ferment out, then washed the resulting yeast and pitched into a simple ale recipe). During fermentation it tasted pretty good, but then became gradually more and more sour.

 

[Greg.L]

Wort is (hopefully) sterile so you would need to introduce a source of wild yeast.

I very much doubt that homebrewers can produce sterile wort or anything close. Your brew room will have a thriving population of yeast, no matter how well you clean it. Every time you open your fermenter yeast will be getting in. Even boiling for an hour isn't guaranteed to kill all micro-organisms, that is what autoclaves are for. Brewing/fermenting is not meant to be a sterile process, but good practice will ensure that infections have little chance of getting hold.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

No Manticle, sorry if you misunderstood, I didn't say that wild yeast doesn't exist ,what I said was wild yeast fermentation doesn't exist and the article is about wine but I just wonder about beer, as I said previously it is something I have never even thought about and wouldn't know if I got one. (a wild yeast fermentation)

 

[wide eyed and legless]

View attachment Wild Yeast Fermentation There's No Such Thing - Fermentation.htmNo Manticle, sorry if you misunderstood, I didn't say that wild yeast doesn't exist ,what I said was wild yeast fermentation doesn't exist and the article is about wine but I just wonder about beer, as I said previously it is something I have never even thought about and wouldn't know if I got one. (a wild yeast fermentation)

 

[GalBrew]

It happens plenty, even to the commercial breweries. Have had beers on more than one occasion where wild yeast have been active. Beers were loaded with phenolics that should not have been there, body was watery and the malt flavour was very light on. Have had a 4 pack where it was a 50/50 split of ok and infected beers. Makes quite a difference.

 

[manticle]

I had hoped to read the actual study rather than a short paragraph on it but from what I can glean, it is talking about winemakers who try and ferment without adding extra yeast.

Brettanomyces is considered a spoilage yeast in most wines (and most beers) and definitely affects flavour profile, even if the majority of fermentation is carried out by a commercially identifiable sacch yeast.

 

[Rocker1986]

I once attempted to cultivate some wild yeast from Chardonnay juice (which I allowed to ferment out, then washed the resulting yeast and pitched into a simple ale recipe). During fermentation it tasted pretty good, but then became gradually more and more sour.

I've just been doing the same thing except using sample tubes of wort from brew days to 'catch' some wild yeast by leaving them sitting around uncovered. They usually start fermenting 'by themselves' in a couple of days. I saved a small sample of wort from the current batch in the FV, pitched some of this yeast into it, let it ferment out and then bottled a couple of bottles. I haven't tasted them yet though. Will be an interesting comparison to the rest of the batch done with proper brewing yeast.

 

[bum]

I had hoped to read the actual study rather than a short paragraph on it...

Not the paper itself but a set of powerpoint slides by the paper's author about her findings. http://www.bcwgc.org/sites/default/files/media/files/Jessica%20Lange%20UBC%20yeast%20populations.pdf

May be interesting to note that all vats were hit with 40ppm of S02.

 

[manticle]

Thanks Bum.

That helps establish what was actually going on in the testing.

Only skim viewed at this point but I couldn't see much about flavour contribution from yeasts that were outcompeted which is of most interest here.

 

[Jessica]

I read it like bacteria, wild yeast can infect your beer and cause off flavours. Wild yeast can be defined as any yeast not deliberately used in your beer and not under your control. They can be harder to detect and harder to control than bacteria.

 

[Back Yard Brewer]

What gets me is how winery's sometimes promote a wild yeast taking hold and really I can't pick it. Get a wild yeast in my beer at home and argh!! Mind you, if one wants to make a weird arse farmhouse ale one expects that, argh!

BYB

 

[Mardoo]

What gets me is how winery's sometimes promote a wild yeast taking hold and really I can't pick it.

That may be in part because the byproducts of yeast-driven fermentation considered palatable in wine are often different than what we consider palatable in beer. Acetone? Sure, works in a lot of wild-ferment wines, just coming off as fruity, but totally foul in most beer. Depends on what your palate is used to.

FWIW here's an interesting personal account of competition within fermentations by a winemaker who works very hard to do solely wild ferments.

http://scholiumwines.com/2013_ferm_dynamics.html?utm_content=madhu_sudana%40yahoo.com&utm_source=VerticalResponse&utm_medium=Email&utm_term=here&utm_campaign=the%20TRIUMPH%20of%20the%20yeastscontent

 

[user 31723]

Someone might be able to elaborate on this story, but when Coopers moved from Glenside to Regency Park in Adelaide they lost brews and had a quite a bit of head scratching because the wild yeast in that area was different to where they'd been brewing for 100 years or so. There is also a story about a brewery in Oakbank from many, many years (80-100) ago that had to close because the wild yeast got in and ruined everything. You can visit its remains and read the story today.

 

[Toper]

Someone might be able to elaborate on this story, but when Coopers moved from Glenside to Regency Park in Adelaide they lost brews and had a quite a bit of head scratching because the wild yeast in that area was different to where they'd been brewing for 100 years or so. There is also a story about a brewery in Oakbank from many, many years (80-100) ago that had to close because the wild yeast got in and ruined everything. You can visit its remains and read the story today.

Coopers moved to Regency Park in the early 2000's ,there's no way they'd be using wild yeast fermentation then.If by "wild yeast fermentation" ,you mean just leaving the fermenter open to the environment and letting nature take it's course,this hasn't happened for many,many years,certainly before early 20th century at the latest for major brewers,and Coopers were/are in that catagory.And didn't they move from Leabrook?

 

[mr_wibble]

I've just been doing the same thing except using sample tubes of wort from brew days to 'catch' some wild yeast by leaving them sitting around uncovered. They usually start fermenting 'by themselves' in a couple of days. I saved a small sample of wort from the current batch in the FV, pitched some of this yeast into it, let it ferment out and then bottled a couple of bottles. I haven't tasted them yet though. Will be an interesting comparison to the rest of the batch done with proper brewing yeast.

That's an interesting project.

I regularly wash my fermenters and other brewing accoutrements on the front lawn.
This means i also regularly innoculate our whole valley with billions of my yeastie buddies.

It makes me wonder if I have released a bunch of "feral" yeast strains, and if right now they're battling it out for supremacy down the orchard...