wild yeast

[wide eyed and legless]

After reading an article about a 3 year study by the University of British Columbia studying wine fermentation, it was found that no matter which yeast started the fermentation indigenous or otherwise a dominant commercial strain took over wiping out any other forms of yeast.
I am not a wine maker but does this mean that wild yeast infections in beer is a myth?
Does anyone know of any similar studies carried out in the brewing industry.

 

[eamonnfoley]

It is not a myth. It happens. Commercial brewers regularly send their beer in for analysis and wild yeast is sometimes present where there are sanitation issues.

Yes a small wild yeast population can be overwhelmed with a much larger healthy dose of brewing yeast. But there are circumstances where the wild yeast will win or maintain a presence. Comes down to strain, time, and cell counts.

 

[SimoB]

Def not a myth.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Could it be that be because the wine makers use SO2 in maybe larger quantities than a brewer would, just seems strange that the findings were negative to wild yeast fermentations. I am actually surprised that we don't get more infections when they are all around us and even on us, when I'm bottling using priming sugar I often think if anything is going in that shouldn't but I haven't had a wild yeast infection touch wood.

 

[rheffera]

Sanitizing is all about making S. Cerevisiae the big kid in the playground stealing everyone elses lunch, and doing so quickly. The wild bug do get to grow a little bit. If you stop sanitizing then sooner or later they will be present in high numbers

That being said i have done 15 brews since the 28th of august in 3 FV's and not one single infection, many of which are done on the same day as bottling another brew (cleaning and sanitizing the FV of course), using hydrogen peroxide solution sprayed all in the FV. I agree, im surprised at the effectiveness of this.

Fast and Good usually don't go together when describing things. It's usually one or the other.

 

[warra48]

Beer brewing on average results in an ABV of about 5% or so (yeah, some Belgians etc etc etc will go much higher).
Wine is never less than 11 or 12% ABV, often up to around 15% or so.
Does that make a difference?
Also, wine strains are different to our beer strains.
I'm not a yeast expert by any means (OK, I'm not an expert on anything much) but it seems there are significant differences in wort and unfermented grape juice.
Do the different pH levels mean anything?

Questions questions questions, and I don't have the answers, but it's food for thought and argument.

 

[Greg.L]

It depends a lot what you mean by wild yeast. I think all cultured yeast are selected from the wild, they are selected for their ability to dominate a ferment and impart certain characteristics. Saccharomyces yeast can definitely inhibit other spoilage yeasts, but there are a range of different spoilage yeasts, it is a whole area of study. Wild sacc yeasts may not do any harm at all, they may actually improve the flavour. If you have been brewing in one area for a few years there will be a lot of yeast present in the environment ready to "infect" your brew, many places rely on these established sources of yeast to do the fermenting. That is mainly wine and cider, but some beer places also use these "wild" yeast. In fact the wild yeast may not be any different from cultured yeast, just an established population in a particular place. Other types of yeast will not usually be as vigorous as sacc but can contribute a lot to the sensory effect. The main defence is thorough cleaning and proper brewing practises like temperature control, pitching healthy yeast and keeping out oxygen.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Yes Greg I agree with what you are saying, but after reading the article ( Google -Wild yeast fermentation. There's no such thing) I got to thinking why would it be any different to beer, as Warra48 suggested that they are different yeast strains in wine and the PH is different but we are surrounded by wild yeast even carry it around on our bodies and if we are bottling and we are fastidious with our hygiene why does our pitched yeast live and intruder yeast dies. I have never given much thought to it before now I can't stop thinking about it.
What is a wild yeast ferment like ?

 

[Greg.L]

Just do a wild ferment and find out. If you have been brewing in the same place you should have a good population of yeast established. You will probably find it takes a few days longer but it won't taste all that different

 

[wide eyed and legless]

I will be brewing again this week so I will try that, so if I use predominantly s04 yeast should I still get the same results ?

 

[Toper]

http://www.enologyinternational.com/yeast/wildyeast.html

 

[wide eyed and legless]

http://www.enologyinternational.com/yeast/wildyeast.html

Good article but written in 1997, the results of the research carried out is 2013, I don't know why I have become so paranoid about wild yeast, for some bizarre reason I keep associating wild yeast with the Invisible Man in the joke about the Invisible Man, Superman and Wonder Woman.

 

[Spiesy]

Wine is never less than 11 or 12% ABV, often up to around 15% or so.
Does that make a difference?

I guess it depends on when the wild yeast take hold. There is 0% ABV in wine wort (whatever it's called) to start with - just a shitload of sugar.

 

[Greg.L]

Cultured yeast has only been used since the 1950s. before that it was all wild yeast, seemed to work ok.

 

[Toper]

I think you're being waaaay to paranoid.I've no doubt that wild yeast can infect beer,but I also think it's way over rated as a threat.Some of the so called wild yeast infections I've seen on here have made me laugh.Unless it's been analysed by a lab,it's all assumption.And the so called "fruit tree in the back yard" being the cause is laughable to me.I live in north Vic,major fruit growing area,on an orchard surrounded by 12,000 pear and apple trees,within 2 sq miles another 50,000 trees,a grape vine on my verandah within 2 metres of my brewing area.Never had an infection.Not here anyway..

 

[Toper]

Cultured yeast has only been used since the 1950s. before that it was all wild yeast, seemed to work ok.

Like to clarify that one Greg? Are you saying there wasn't a commercially produced yeast used in brewing until the 50's?

 

[Greg.L]

Like to clarify that one Greg? Are you saying there wasn't a commercially produced yeast used in brewing until the 50's?

I thought that was pretty clear, perhaps you don't believe me. Cultured yeast has only been mass-produced for commercial use since the 1950s, for any purpose. Microbiology is a fairly new science.

 

[wide eyed and legless]

Agree with you there topper I have 21 fruit trees two rows of raspberries and one row of Josta berries in the back yard it doesn't make one iota of difference as far as I know. I have also seen posts about fruit trees in the back yard, I bottle in the back yard but what troubles me is am I drinking beer (which tastes good to me) that has been fermented by The invisible Man.

 

[Greg.L]

OK perhaps I was wrong with that last post - cultured yeast was first used for brewing in 1890. Still, it only became widely available much later, and was first widely used for wine from 1950 in Australia. My point is the same - for a long time wild yeast was the only yeast.

 

[Toper]

I thought that was pretty clear, perhaps you don't believe me. Cultured yeast has only been mass-produced for commercial use since the 1950s, for any purpose. Microbiology is a fairly new science.

Not that new Greg,1857 is a fair while ago,late 1800's for the first yeast culturing by Mr Hansen.And the mass production of yeast foer commercial purposes certainly occured before the 50's,to quote Wiki

By the late 18th century, two yeast strains used in brewing had been identified: Saccharomyces cerevisiae, so-called top-fermenting yeast, and S. carlsbergensis, bottom-fermenting yeast. S. cerevisiae has been sold commercially by the Dutch for bread-making since 1780; while, around 1800, the Germans started producing S. cerevisiae in the form of cream. In 1825, a method was developed to remove the liquid so the yeast could be prepared as solid blocks.[14] The industrial production of yeast blocks was enhanced by the introduction of the filter press in 1867. In 1872, Baron Max de Springer developed a manufacturing process to create granulated yeast, a technique that was used until the first World War.[15] In the United States, naturally occurring airborne yeasts were used almost exclusively until commercial yeast was marketed at the Centennial Exposition in 1876 in Philadelphia, where Charles L. Fleischmann exhibited the product and a process to use it, as well as serving the resultant baked bread.[16]