Why do ALL of my can kits taste bad?

[pablo_h]

I've often though chlorine in the water is a big deal, after all we spend so much effort and time on yeast health it wouldn't be a good idea to dump yeast on unboiled tap water ala K+K brew style. (all my newbie attempts at such K+K brews failed years ago). Chlorine is added to water to kill microbes after all.
And it makes sense that AG brewing or even all extract (where boiling occurs for hopping) is not going to have that problem as all water is boiled.

I question what strength/effect chloramine has though. It seems it's so easily got rid of with tiny amounts of chemicals it may already be very weak in our water? Or sanatizer residue or something in the wort takes care of it in similar ways? IDK.
Most filters and boiling don't get rid of it so it's not a big difference between kits/extract or AG.

But thanks for the info stu about vit c. I might try that in the future side by side when I'm doing two identical brews. I've always been meaning to get campden tabs or something to deal with chloramines but always forget. I might have more chance remembering to get vit c somewhere on a regular shopping trip or something.

But for now, chlorine is a problem so at least let brewing water "gas off" overnight (or get a filter for it), and boil as much as you can in a partial, and really anything that yeast is going to be immediately subject to. E: Subject to after cooling that is

 

[Markbeer]

I think something has to be said for people's tastes.

Michael have you ever tasted a good can kit or extract brew? Let me rephrase that.

Have you ever tasted one where you couldn't taste the extract?

Some people don't seem to be able to taste extract and others pick it straight away. If your one to pick it straight away then there is little you can do.

I remember tasting the Garage Project Industrial IIPA. Even with all the hop extracts added all I could taste was malt extract like I just opened a can kit. Others couldn't detect it.

Maybe try boiling all your water, then if that doesn't work try and see if you can taste another's extract brew they feel is great.

I think out of the IBU club, only Eddie is the last extract brewer but he is converting. Bring a bottle and someone will know what's wrong next meet up.

Love your stir plates BTW.

 

[megabyte]

Michael have you ever tasted a good can kit or extract brew? Let me rephrase that.

Have you ever tasted one where you couldn't taste the extract?

I've never tasted a good kit+kilo yet, but I've never tried one that someone else has brewed.

I have brewed extract beers (with steeping grains) that tasted fine to me, and I still top up my big beers with LME or DME if my mash tun is too small and I have no problems with it. I've never noticed the offensive "homebrew" taste from anything but kit+kilo batches.

Maybe try boiling all your water, then if that doesn't work try and see if you can taste another's extract brew they feel is great.

I think out of the IBU club, only Eddie is the last extract brewer but he is converting. Bring a bottle and someone will know what's wrong next meet up.

Great suggestions. I've got a new batch of Coopers Australian Pale Ale + BE2 + Coopers Bottle yeast in the fermentor at 18C.
I've mixed it with pre-boiled water this time to rule that out as the main factor and I also brought the extract and BE2 up to a brief simmer before going into the fermenter just to be sure that everything is sanitary. I'll try bring a bottle along to stoutfest. I promise I won't be so mean as to enter them into the case swap! :lol:

 

[GibboQLD]

BE2 is 50% dextrose, which explains the thin/cidery taste -- wonder how BE3 would go? Given the high proportion of light DME in BE3, I'm pretty sure it was Coopers attempt at providing an adjunct that doesn't result in the "homebrew twang" that BE1/BE2 gives.

The only Coopers kit beers I've ever made that are missing that "twang" are the ones with little or no added dextrose, or with plenty of DME/spec grains to balance it out.

 

[Cloth Ears]

I haven't made anything other than K+K brews since I came back about 7 years ago. Prior to that I'd tried grain brewing in the 80s, but had never had consistently successful brews, so I gave it up and bought the amber fluid pre-brewed.
Then I noticed a Coopers kit for $99 in my local Coles (I think) and after watching Mercurio's video it produced the best brew I'd made (OK, memory may be a little hazy, but it was definitely drinkable - even in PET). I continued to experiment up to the point where, today, I brew 4 kit cans along with a whole bunch of other sugars and some spices, in a 60litre fermenter. I use only tap water (but I am in Melbourne) and I do a regular bleach to clean out the stuff before I use it. But the brews are so good I don't bother with grains except for flavouring and mouthfeel. And the rest of the family agrees, as I have to hide a dozen or so for consumption here at home.
I don't generally use any of the Coopers additives or malts. For powders, I go AHB and for liquids, I generally use Black Rock. And half the yeasts are Mangrove Jack, the rest are the K+K ones from Coopers - all dry pitched.

 

[manticle]

Any of the brewers who don't enjoy their own kits enjoy the flavour of brews by other kit brewers?

Would go a long way to working out if it's your palate/preference or your process/ingredients.

 

[megabyte]

BE2 is 50% dextrose, which explains the thin/cidery taste -- wonder how BE3 would go? Given the high proportion of light DME in BE3, I'm pretty sure it was Coopers attempt at providing an adjunct that doesn't result in the "homebrew twang" that BE1/BE2 gives.

The only Coopers kit beers I've ever made that are missing that "twang" are the ones with little or no added dextrose, or with plenty of DME/spec grains to balance it out.

2 very strong arguments for ditching the BE2. If the water doesn't help this batch I'll give DME a shot next time.

...I don't generally use any of the Coopers additives or malts. For powders, I go AHB and for liquids, I generally use Black Rock. And half the yeasts are Mangrove Jack, the rest are the K+K ones from Coopers - all dry pitched.

Another reason to ditch the BE2 then. Thanks for the advice on the possible alternatives.

 

[MastersBrewery]

Mike,
If this fails your next port of call will be taste bud transplant. .. and that sounds as painful as drinking tooheys new for the rest of your life

 

[user 31093]

I don't regularly brew kits, the last one I did was years ago and only because it was given to me.

Brewed up just great and people never knew it was a kit, in fact I've still got maybe a dozen stubbies lying about, popped one maybe 6 weeks ago and it's matured real nice.

 

[manticle]

Any of the brewers who don't enjoy their own kits enjoy the flavour of brews by other kit brewers?
Would go a long way to working out if it's your palate/preference or your process/ingredients.

I realise after reading that this question was asked and answered, at least from OP.

Pretty sure this is the crux though -unless you can point to a kk brew that tastes like you'd wish it to taste, you may be expecting too much.

 

[peteru]

I'm still convinced that the most likely fault is the water and possibly the cleaning processes. In particular I would suspect that any chlorine / chloramine present will result in flavour components that some of us are sensitive to and find offensive. I made somewhere between 6 and 8 batches of kit beer that I was unhappy with. Initially I thought my equipment was contaminated and I went as far as replacing everything. Still the same problems. Then I brewed a full boil extract batch and due to bad weather did not clean with pink powder / bleach but instead just used boiling water. The result was excellent. Next batch was full boil again, but this time I used pink powder and hot tap water to rinse. The result wasn't utter rubbish, but it was not quite right. I started suspecting chlorine. At that stage I decided to completely change my cleaning processes and only use unscented napisan to clean, then dry overnight and sanitise with boiling water. Again, the results were not quite right. On the next batch, I again used chlorine free cleaning and sanitising procedures, but also used water that went through a two stage water filter with brand new cartridges, including a coconut active carbon filter. The result was excellent.

Most recently I made a plain old green Coopers can with 1.7kg of Black Rock Light malt extract and 60g of Columbus for dry hopping, plus 7mL of Citra Hop Shot. I had a friend over and she polished off about 1/3 of the keg in one evening and her comment was: "This is great! Much better than the lolly water they brew at Flat Rock."

Now, I would not go as far as that, but it was certainly very drinkable for a kit with minimal tweaking. The curries at Flat Rock are very nice and more than make up for the hit and miss brews. If at all uncertain, the staff at Flat Rock will let you have a taste test before you order a whole pint and it's walking distance from my place (if you are fit or pissed)

TL;DR - kits are not destined to be horrible, but to get decent results out of them, you still need to be careful about the process.

 

[Ducatiboy stu]

At the recent(ish) Grafton show there was a a fair few Kit beers, and all but a couple where really good. The best one you wouldnt pick it for a kit.

It was surprising as most brewers would not be as fanatical as us

I have also had kit beers at swap meets and they where on par with some of the AG beers ( Frogman rate a high mention here )


Saying that all kit beer is crap is nonsesne and just not true

 

[Deep End]

I remember, when I first started brewing, every second brew I made tasted "wrong". I put that down to poor cleaning, although it may have been something else. I still only brew K&K. It does what I need it to do from a beer and I spend more time mucking around on other projects. However, they all taste fine to me. Anyone I have ever shared a brew with has been quite surprised by the lack of early 80's to early 90's homebrew taste in the beer I make.

I put this down to a few variables. The first being decent water, straight from the tap. I drink a lot of water from my taps and I have no issue with it, Tasmanian water is good enough for me. Secondly, I bottle condition and prime each bottle, usually with carb drops, but sometimes with a measure. I just do not drink enough beer to justify needing to make the process any quicker or easier. Thirdly, which pertains to my consumption levels, my brews get plenty of time in the bottle to actually "condition". Three months would pass before the first bottle is cracked.

I have noticed beers, and ciders and other brews, change their flavour over the course of time. Usually in the first three months or so. I do not know anything about cold crashing and kegging and doubt that I ever will need to. But I would hazard a guess that if you bottled a K&K brew and forgot about it for 6 months it might taste a bit nicer, at the very least it would have nice small bubbles and hold a head; if it had the body to do so in the first place.

That is my ten cents worth on the subject :blink:

Cheers

Deep End

 

[Shadime]

Excuse my ignorance but what is K&K?

Cheers

 

[Yob]

Kit and kilo

 

[Curly79]

Kit and Kilo mate. As in a Coopers Can and a Kilo of Fermentables.

 

[stewy]

Kit brew tastes like kit brew; you can improve it with sound sanitation, yeast handling & fermentation control... But, you can't polish a turd.

Treating water is largely pointless with kits, the profile has been locked in (with the exception of excess chloramines, sulfides)..

It is a great starting point though, and I can easily sit back with a few mates & throw back several home made kit beers.

Just set your expectations accordingly.

 

[Vini2ton]

I reckon it's in the production of the extract. I love this thread, as I have a Coopers lager kit sitting there waiting for me to brew up .just as some sort of nostalgic exercise. Spare fermenter waiting to go. It won't be wasted even if I can't stomach it, as it'll be shandied with some stout or whatever. Fond memories of early brewing. The fears, the processes (sanitise, sanitise, sanitise) and the buzz of getting pissed on something you made yourself. I can definitely taste extract malt in beers. Liquid is worse imho. But all booze is good compared to the alterative.

 

[manticle]

Not sure.
I have two batches in cubes (all grain) that are still fermenting but taste like my memory of kk - thin and a touch lifeless.

Both these had mash and boil issues due to equipment malfunction and at the end of a long brewday got way too much hot break carryover.
Take that brulosophy.
Stuff does matter.

 

[contrarian]

I've always thought that something must happen in the process of reducing a 23L wort down to a couple of litres.

It's like dehydrated food that is then rehydrated. The end result is a close approximation of the original but is never the same. Like orange juice made from concentrate never tastes like juice straight from an orange.

That said I've had beers made from kits that have been really tasty and easy to drink. Normally they have had a few more bits and pieces than a kk though.

 

[megabyte]

I have two batches in cubes (all grain) that are still fermenting but taste like my memory of kk - thin and a touch lifeless.

I've brewed bad AG batches too - too many hops, too many cacao nibs, crappy malt choices, high finishing gravity, oh and the time I tried to toast and smoke my own wheat for a dunkelweizen (thanks iron brewer comp!)... but in all cases they still tasted like beer, never like a KK. Do let us know if you've come up with an AG KK clone

It's like dehydrated food that is then rehydrated. The end result is a close approximation of the original but is never the same. Like orange juice made from concentrate never tastes like juice straight from an orange.

Good analogy. In this case I'm brewing the Coopers Australian Pale Ale kit which is meant to be similar to Coopers Pale Ale. I know the commercial beer is all malt (no adjunct) so it's going to be impossible for the K+K to clone it using BE2 which is 25% Dex and 25% Malto, plus as you say, even the malt in the kit has been dehydrated making matters worse. Still, I just want them to taste like proper beer (jokes aside about mega swill) even if it's not the same as the commercial brew.

 

[petesbrew]

Michael, the only kit that seems to be mentioned here is the Coopers Pale Ale.
Dare I ask, have you tried any other kits?

One of the things I mean to do this year is go back and do a KnK brew for the hell of it.

Personally I've never been a big fan of Coopers Pale Ale, whether it's from the brewery or out of a tin. The extra stout is my port of call.

I've done crap KnK's and crap AG's... obviously I've shed more tears over the bad AG brews.

 

[megabyte]

Michael, the only kit that seems to be mentioned here is the Coopers Pale Ale.
Dare I ask, have you tried any other kits?

Yep, in my early days I brewed many K&Ks, Home Brand Draught, Tooheys Special Draught, Coopers Mexican Cerveza, Coopers Lager, English Bitter, some experimental "Toucan" batches and many more that my mother in law kept buying for me... I never stomached more than a few glasses of them before they went down the drain. I'm sure most people would have given up and I'm glad I got into extract brewing before throwing in the towel.

I've been fixated on the Coopers Pale Ale kit lately because it gets good reviews over on the Coopers forum, I know the hopping schedule is simple and should be easy for Coopers to reproduce in a kit, and I know I can get the exact yeast that I culture up from a bottle. It's a simple beer, there really aren't any excuses why this kit should taste like piss.

If water is the problem, well I'll be surprised because my tap water tastes fine to me when it's not in beer, but I love learning new things! I'll know once this batch is kegged. If it's the BE2 that makes them taste like piss then that would be a terrible shame, that homebrew gets a terrible reputation and people are likely quitting the hobby because Coopers was selling a ****** brew enhancer that ruins anything it touches. I doubt it and I think they're better than that but still I'll test out that theory too if the water doesn't pan out.

The extra stout is my port of call.

I've heard (a long time ago) that this is Coopers' best kit.

 

[petesbrew]

I meant the coopers black n yellow tallie, but yes I always liked the stout.

My favourite kits would've been the Stout, and the Canadian Blonde, a great base kit for experimenting.

 

[Grott]

Could this be the reason for some peoples dislike of k & k?? (need to enlarge to read?)

 

[Droopy Brew]

So you didnt like your kit beers to start with, then went to AG and liked the beers. Then went back to kit and still didn't like them. My best guess is that the water is not your main issue.
Oh and the LHBS guys saying they reckon they are great may have an ulterior motive, or low expectations.

 

[pcmfisher]

I don't think its the water either. Nor the dehydrated malt.

All I know is my kit brews all have an underlying kit taste.
My extract brews made with liquid malt, dry malt and dextrose don't have the same taste.

That said, when these subjects come up I get compelled to revisit kits, so I have a Coopers Pale and BE2 fermenting this minute.
We shall see.

 

[Nick667]

For me it was all about HWA (hot wort aeration ) but no one believes me!
Lots of air going into the FV while the goo and boiled water is still hot.
I have a really good sense of smell/taste that can be a problem sometimes and now I only brew AG but I was sometimes getting 'that taste ' in some of my grain beers until I learnt about HWA. Especially during summer and yes I have temp control.
Now I dont aerate in any way until under 26C and it works for me.
It used to be a whole lot cheaper to do those kit and kilo things once, and I use to drink them no matter how bad and after the initial shock friends would hoe in as well.
But now I am muuuuuuuuuch older.
Good luck. Good topic.
Nick.

 

[megabyte]

For me it was all about HWA (hot wort aeration ) but no one believes me!
Lots of air going into the FV while the goo and boiled water is still hot.

Wait, I thought HWA was no longer in vogue. Did it start affecting beers again after that german paper on low oxygen brewing was published last month? h34r:

But seriously I do like your suggestion. Whether HWA (or HSA or HWO) is fact or fiction, I will try to eliminate it from my next K&K. While I was splashing the cool water onto my hot wort I wondered if brewers from the BN Army would protest about hot side aeration, but on some level I thought "it's a K&K, surely there are going to be bigger issues to worry about". Next time I'll be more diligent now that you've brought it up.

 

[contrarian]

I call shenanigans! From what I've heard hot side aeration is only a concern in massive breweries who are pumping huge volumes at high speed. If you could reproduce those conditions while warming a can of goo and then mixing it with room temp water, just prior to pitching yeast I would be very surprised.

Michael, I think that there have been a wide range of possibilities raised here but ocham's razor needs to come into play. A home made carbonara will never taste the same as a packet pasta. Both can taste good it they will never taste the same.